China, Not our Friend.

[Q Classic]

either way, i'm torn between saying "go china! bring the center of civilization back to where it belongs, back in east asia!" and "crap! do everything to ensure they are dependent on us, the US, and make sure they know that."

[Joseph]

Originally posted by mindseye

Does China really have any enemies?

yes. It is the USA

Oh, the same USA which counts China as it's #4 (about to replace Japan as #3) largest trading partner? That USA? Do you really think the big corporate boys (who are more powerful than ever during the current American administration) would allow such a lucrative relationship to go down the tubes?

You must be joking right? Step on the corner and say something that the Gov. should or should not do and see if there are any Commie left.

No joke. Sorry, but you seem to be a little behind the times. These days there are front page stories of major (Chinese mainland) newspapers that are critical of the government. Maybe you can ask your wife about it.

My wife was born here in Napa. She could care less about China. She is fully 100% American. Her Mother was born in here also. Only her Father was born in Canton area. He left in 1930 to come here. However one of his brother was sent to prison two time, his crime, he was a teacher.

I have been married to one for 38 years 9 mos. and 4 days, you tell me.

Sorry, that doesn’t answer the question. Again: are you saying that anyone who doesn’t think like "the western man" is our enemy? If not, what where you saying? Or are you going to dodge the question again.

No. I was saying, western man has better not use our way of thinking to understand the Chinese way of thinking.

Read Taiwan history if you want.

Maybe you should read up on current cross-straits relations. Hint: there is a new Chinese president, goes by the name of Hu.

I have been to Taiwan, have you?
A girl there told me one day that as far as the Taiwanese are concern, the Chinese can leave any day and they would be happy. The Taiwanese want to free of China. Remember Chiang invaded Taiwan and kill many thousands of Taiwanese to take over the island.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by SpencerH
What do you know of the Falun Gong types? They have been popularized here in the south by the religious types and I'd like to have another opinion.

Falun Gong is a cult, pretty much like the Unification Church or that cult that released sarin gas in Tokyo subway stations. There are just too many parallels between the 3 to say Falun Gong is not a cult.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Joseph
I have been to Taiwan, have you?

And?

Originally posted by Joseph
A girl there told me one day that as far as the Taiwanese are concern, the Chinese can leave any day and they would be happy.

1. How do you discern between a Chinese and a "Taiwanese?"

2. How does the thinking of a girl make it the majority sentiment?

Originally posted by Joseph
The Taiwanese want to free of China. Remember Chiang invaded Taiwan and kill many thousands of Taiwanese to take over the island.

Where did you get that from?

[David Floyd]

Reading through this thread, I found it enormously amusing how mindseye tried to justify China's human rights record by saying that China doesn't actually violate human rights, but it's just a matter of perception based upon society.

So, then, I take it that you feel that if "society" says that torture, for example, is OK, then it's perfectly fine? That is, you don't feel that there is any objective individual right or moral truth that should stop those in power from torturing those not in power?

[Lord Merciless]

China's human rights situation is completely indefensible. Beside the usual government made oppressions, there are kinds of social ills associated with early stage capitalism going on. However, I still think it's wrong to make China our official enemy. It would create more security threat for us, it would make the lives of Chinese more miserable, and it would make the rule of the communists more stable.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by David Floyd
So, then, I take it that you feel that if "society" says that torture, for example, is OK, then it's perfectly fine?

That is a Slippery Slope, isn't it?

Originally posted by David Floyd
That is, you don't feel that there is any objective individual right or moral truth that should stop those in power from torturing those not in power?

Where would these objective rights or "moral truth" stem from? Can't possibly within us...

[Mr. President]

Originally posted by Dissident
Do they go about trying to conqure the world?

Yes.

Ask the Malays of Singapore about that. Ask Vietnam and Cambodia. Ask the Javanese and the Madurese what their experience with China is.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Falun Gong is a cult, pretty much like the Unification Church or that cult that released sarin gas in Tokyo subway stations. There are just too many parallels between the 3 to say Falun Gong is not a cult.

So you're saying thats how they are portrayed officially and in the newspapers in HK (or does that apply to mainland as well).

They have been held up here (in the south at least) as an example of how the chinese govt does not allow freedom of religion. They are seen as christians not cultists.

[Q Classic]

ur, the taiwanese were different enough to believe that they were not completely chinese.

jiang also thought that way, which is why during the early years of his nationalist regime in exile, he often used force and then asked questions.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by SpencerH
So you're saying thats how they are portrayed officially and in the newspapers in HK (or does that apply to mainland as well).

This is the way it is in acutality. The facts are chilling.

Originally posted by SpencerH
They have been held up here (in the south at least) as an example of how the chinese govt does not allow freedom of religion. They are seen as christians not cultists.

Christians? Okay, it is likely that early Christianity was started as a cult if the records of the Gospels are accurate. However, that's where the similarity ends. You've got some poor, misguided people down there.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
ur, the taiwanese were different enough to believe that they were not completely chinese.

That's what some of them want you to believe. In fact, some of them might actually believe in this, but such has no basis in fact.

There is no indigenous people of the island. All inhabitants moved there from the main land, from the adjecent Fujin province. The so called natives speak the same dialact spoken around the coastal regions of Fujin province. They have similar customs. These people were never isolated from the mainland, trade - thus cultural exchange - occurred continuously.

Originally posted by Q Cubed
jiang also thought that way, which is why during the early years of his nationalist regime in exile, he often used force and then asked questions.

Jiang used force, but not because he believed Taiwanese were different from Chinese. It was because some locals resented being lorded over by these "outsiders."

[David Floyd]

That is a Slippery Slope, isn't it?

Just answer the question. Is torture OK, or isn't it?

Where would these objective rights or "moral truth" stem from? Can't possibly within us...

So you have no absolute objection to torture, then?

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by mindseye
Factoring out cultural factors like food, my life here in Shanghai is not all that different than my life in San Francisco - except that it's much safer here (a fact conveniently forgotten when talk turns to "human rights").

Pardon my curiosity, but I'm assuming — based on what you said above — that you can also run for political office (at any level of government, i.e., local, provincial, national) as something other than a member of the Communist Party? You could get away with writing a letter to the editor in the local paper criticizing leaders and nothing untoward would happen to you? You could access the entire Internet — including sites "forbidden" and "blocked" by your authorities — with the government's full knowledge and they wouldn't necessarily do anything to inhibit you?

Gatekeeper

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Dissident
ahh but take a look at their history. Do they go about trying to conqure the world?

Actually, yes. The Emporers tried to conquor as much territory as they could which is why modern China controls so much territory. Also look at the history of Korea, Vietnam, Loas, Burma, Tibet, the Chiangti Khonite, and Mogolia. At one time or another the Chinese have conquored or attempted to conquor all of them.

The only reason the Chinese weren't world conquorers on the same scale as the western powers is because they were so much more backwards then the western powers for nearly all of the last 500 years.