China, Not our Friend.

[Defiant]

Lord,
I am only saying they are already our enemies, I am just pointing it out when people say, "heh! we can't invade Iraq because China will veto it". My point is, China was never on our side nor will they be, the article just makes the statement point blank. If they were to move on Twaiwan, then you bet we will get involved to the fullest capacity, I believe.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Joseph
Are you sure you were in the same Navy that I was in?
I think you spent to many year in the MMR.

Joseph

it makes sense if you think about it.

I'm not a right-winger even though I was in the military. I don't believe China poses any serious threat unless we attack them first, or perhaps in some dispute over Taiwan- but that is not likely.

By fear, I mean internal threats. Terrorism does have the capability to change our way of life. Just look at the Patriot act, and talk of Patriot Act 2.

Americans already live in a state of fear fed by the media. That is my suspician why so many people drive SUV's. They are afraid of dying in a car accident.

[SpencerH]

China's current crop of ICBM's are barely that. Hence, their inability to target more than the west coast. Of course with the technology that was transferred to the chinese military under the Clinton administration we've speeded up that process enormously.

[mindseye]

China was never on our side nor will they be

Wrong. Recent example: they twice intervened on our side with North Korea, once by cutting off critical energy shipments.

[mindseye]

Give me a history lesson then, when was the last time they were considered a world power and how did they do then, what was the Ming Dynasty about?

So I take it that you feel the politics of Elizabethan England are reliable indicators of current British international policy?

History is one thing, but you really need to keep up with current events.

Care to mention what current events you are talking about, and how they are relevant?

China is #4 as you say in economic power

Except I never said that. I said they were the USA's #4 trading partner.

that's exactly how they want you to think, while secretly, silently gaining power, until it is too late to hinder their progress.

(sniff, sniff) Do I smell a conspiracist among us? Pardon me, I gotta go check under my bed to see if there's a BIG RED COMMIE hiding there!

BTW, Russia was another country invaded repeatedly, France and Germany come to mind and look what they did to stop it from happening again.

Sorry, I'm just not following you here. The histories and current situations of the nations you mentioned don't seem to have a lot to do with that of China. Maybe you can clarify your point?

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Defiant
Lord,
I am only saying they are already our enemies, I am just pointing it out when people say, "heh! we can't invade Iraq because China will veto it". My point is, China was never on our side nor will they be, the article just makes the statement point blank. If they were to move on Twaiwan, then you bet we will get involved to the fullest capacity, I believe.

I disagree. If they were our enemies, then we should do everything possible to undermine their economy, incite conflicts between China and its neighbors, and provide active support for all its internal dissidents. The fact is that we had tried this approach for 3 decades, only to create a China that was far more militaristic and dangerous to us.

Through business dealings, we MAKE China's economy DEPENDENT on ours, we MAKE China's youth worshipping our junk food culture (McDonald is the favorite restaurant among Chinese youths), we MAKE China's elites by educating them in our universities, and we MAKE China's leadership see that their very survival depends on the well-being of the US.

This is a far better alternative than pushing China into the same boat with the Islamic Fundies and Anti-American Eurocommies.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by SpencerH
China's current crop of ICBM's are barely that. Hence, their inability to target more than the west coast. Of course with the technology that was transferred to the chinese military under the Clinton administration we've speeded up that process enormously.

I'm not willing to suffer the deaths of millions of Americans and economic disaster even it means destroying China once and for all.

[Defiant]

OK, Lord, then if we believe the article and there is no real reason not to, why are they trying to undermine the USA?

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless

I'm not willing to suffer the deaths of millions of Americans and economic disaster even it means destroying China once and for all.

And you figure my reply somehow implied that I was?

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Defiant
OK, Lord, then if we believe the article and there is no real reason not to, why are they trying to undermine the USA?

I don't see this as undermining the US. Space is a free for all business, just like the New World 500 years. If we don't take the initiative, somebody will eventually. I think it's good that China tries their shot at space because it will finally give Congress some incentives to get off their lame ass. After all, we are still decades ahead of China there.

As for espionage and etc, this is ongoing between all countries. We recently busted a Russian espionage ring, and they busted one of ours. I'm pretty sure US is still engaged low-level espionage activities against China. Hey, we are even doing that to France and Germany.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by SpencerH


And you figure my reply somehow implied that I was?

Your reply gives me impressions like that: Dude, they only got 30 nukes, but we have thousands! We are gonna kick their ass!

Maybe you didn't mean that, but many people apparently think ths way.

[Defiant]

Here is the difference as I see it Lord. If the situation was reversed or China got ahead of us in advancement of weapons as we are to them, now, do you think China would move against Taiwan? I believe they would, and in doing so negate your argument of being non-aggressive, yes?

[mindseye]

China has shown no reluctance to involving itself militarily whenever and wherever it can.

The Spratleys are just one recent example of where they haven’t acted where they could've. Compare PRC military activity with that of the USA during the same period (post 1949), PRC's is at a far lower level. Certainly far less than "whenever and wherever it can".

Try counting the number of high ranking military and secret police in the highest echelons of government and communist party.

Thank heavens they aren't running the show. BTW, nothing like all of the military thinks as you believe. The government here is nowhere near as monolithic as most westerners would have it. There are factions even within the military over strategic planning.

When you refer to China's history, are you talking about pre- or post-Mao?

The entirety of chinese history shows the cultural/attitudinal differences between China and the West.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about history showing that China was not "our friend". My mis-reading.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Defiant
Here is the difference as I see it Lord. If the situation was reversed or China got ahead of us in advancement of weapons as we are to them, now, do you think China would move against Taiwan? I believe they would, and in doing so negate your argument of being non-aggressive, yes?

China has as much right to Taiwan as the US had to right to crush the Confederates.

If China is really as powerful as we are, I doubt our government would dare to meddle there in the first place.

But on the other hand, if China really can achieve our level of advancement, it wouldn't be very different from us both politically and economically, and Taiwan would be on all fours begging to be admitted to the "Greater China".

[mindseye]

Sory, forgot this ...

but China is clearly working toward developing ICBM's and becoming a military superpower.

As has been mentioned, China already has a nuclear force (since the 1960's) of about 30 aging warheads on ICBMs and a few on SLBMs. Not much of a credible first-strike weapon, and probably not even enough for deterrence (at least against the US).

China's military is still very far from being superpower caliber. It's getting better, but really, it's a land-based force, certainly hard to see as much of a credible threat to the US for the foreseeable future.

If you could see what a typical PLA soldier looks like, I suspect you might change your thinking about how implausible that threat is.

Besides all that, I want to ask: do you think it is unusual or suspicious for a great- or superpower to maintain a modern military?