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**Al B. Sure!** · August 11, 2003, 00:01

Imran:

blues, improv jazz (though the music is a bit too complicated for something that a person can do on the corner or the step), a form of jamaican poetry reading to a steady rhythm, etc. are all pre-cursors to rap... rap is just the present version of it... maybe rap's sucessor will be more famous but the same basic progression from bards to blues to rap has lasted for centuries.

**Al B. Sure!** · August 11, 2003, 00:04

Imran:

EXACTLY MY POINT!

Shakespeare was like popular culture... the masses enjoyed him as did plenty of the rulers... the critics and people who imagined themselves with higher tastes or higher standards (ie- think the people in this thread who claimed 20th century hollywood and pop culture would be dismissed as stupid in the future) thought shakespeare was garbage...

thank you for proving my point... god damn people on apolyton don't even think anymore

**Imran Siddiqui** · August 11, 2003, 00:05

So rap is basically the progression of blues, country, bards, everything? You could also say the same thing about rock and disco (which are undoubtable progressions of older music). Do you think disco will be famous in the future? After all, it is the natural progression (and has begat trance and dance music, of course)?

**notyoueither** · August 11, 2003, 00:06

The icon is not the genre, the icon is the genius within a genre. Maybe rap can produce one like Will. Unlikely, but possible.

Like many others, my money is on the 4 mop tops, although they will not be as big as some others, like the Bard.

**Al B. Sure!** · August 11, 2003, 00:07

Imran:

disco's successors will be known to future people... the thing with disco is that in its disco-form being called disco, it didn't have much of a run (it's already a thing of the past)... only a few years... rap as rap has lasted over 20 so far...

**Imran Siddiqui** · August 11, 2003, 00:08

Shakespeare was like popular culture... the masses enjoyed him as did plenty of the rulers... the critics and people who imagined themselves with higher tastes or higher standards (ie- think the people in this thread who claimed 20th century hollywood and pop culture would be dismissed as stupid in the future) thought shakespeare was garbage...

thank you for proving my point... god damn people on apolyton don't even think anymore

Say what? I was actually NOT proving your point. The 'critics' (ie, the richer folk) did like Shakesphere. Elites very much liked to go, as I pointed out. Where did I talk about the masses? I talked about the rich going to see his stuff more than the poor.

Or is this another case of you making something up from someone else's post in the hope of bolstering your own point?

**Geronimo** · August 11, 2003, 00:08

To be fair though, we have to admit that many snobbish sorts in our contemporary society likewise cannot resist some of the lures of pop culture. The fact that shakespears plays were performed for royalty does not by itself indicate that they were seen much differently by the snobs of Shakespears day than modern pop culture is seen by it's present day elitist critics.

**Imran Siddiqui** · August 11, 2003, 00:12

disco's successors will be known to future people... the thing with disco is that in its disco-form being called disco, it didn't have much of a run (it's already a thing of the past)... only a few years... rap as rap has lasted over 20 so far...

It's only because you like rap that you see disco as dead. Trance and Dance, which are the disco of today, are just as different as modern day rap was to the early stuff of the early 80s, of course more people called it Hip Hop back then anyway.

Though in a 100 years, I think that both disco and rap will be forgotten. People will remember the Bee Gees and Public Enemy, etc.. the big guys in the field, but won't remember much else of the genre... just that it existed.

edit: Think about it. We're smart people. But how much do we REALLY know about music in 1904? Really, not much at all. I'm sure Boris and the classical guys know some of their genre, but as for the other popular stuff of the times... how many really know?

**Al B. Sure!** · August 11, 2003, 00:26

Imran:

do you shut your brain off when you read one of my posts or something? one more time...

i noticed how some people in this thread were saying how modern pop culture which is popular among all walks of life, such as hollywood, will be seen as inferior in the future... people in this thread have come to that conclusion because they themselves see pop culture as base and stupid...

similiarly, shakespeare was popular among englishmen of all walks of life but at the same time many critics and those who thought they had great standards (like some of the people in this thread) believed him stupid and would not be known in the future... they would never have imagined him being the greatest playwrite of all time...

therefore, these same apolytoners who like the 17th century french saw shakespeare as garbage, might just be hounding the aspects of 20th century pop culture that would be famed and seen as high art in the future...

Trance and Dance, which are the disco of today, are just as different as modern day rap was to the early stuff of the early 80s, of course more people called it Hip Hop back then anyway.

not really... the background music has changed from old disco music to rock to soul samples to jazz, etc. but the actually rapper's art has remained the same... Grandmaster Flash's song The Message from god knows when... 79? 80? can hold its own today.

and why public enemy? i dont think public enemy sold nearly enough records to be the only rap group remembered... multi-platinum artists like 2pac and jay-z got a better chance of being known in the future than public enemy... to put things in perspective, 2pac's first album was released in 1991 and his tenth year release Until the End of Time when sold over 4 million copies. Public Enemy also released a cd (Revolverlution) around the same time and it flopped horribly... brought no new fans and even the old fans probably didn't bother buying it. a shame that PE is ALREADY old news...

**Al B. Sure!** · August 11, 2003, 00:30

you're right about 1904 Imran... i think years ago i posted on apolyton asking about what kind of music people listened to at the turn of the century... my guess is Susa and marching music was popular but the lack of record players and radios prevented the music industry from going anywhere (and no one had a full marching band on hand to listen to) so most people's exposure to music was piano playing and fiddles and church music.

**Al B. Sure!** · August 11, 2003, 00:32

and thats another thing... lack of recordings prevented 1904 music from being kept and remembered...

**notyoueither** · August 11, 2003, 00:36

I guess Mozart has been long lost, then...

**Al B. Sure!** · August 11, 2003, 00:39

notyoueither:

I think 2pac, had he lived, would probably have become that icon. he died at the extremely young age of 26... had he Paul McCartney's years (thats the name of the beetle guy who's still alive right?), he might have proved to be that icon.

**notyoueither** · August 11, 2003, 00:44

Maybe, and maybe he will still be. That is the great thing about it. Real talent will win out over the long run. Whether I like Rap or no will matter not.

**Al B. Sure!** · August 11, 2003, 00:44

notyoueither:

i dont know... but you can't deny that having music on vinyl, cassettes, cds, etc. greatly increases the chance that such music will be known in the future and by peoples all over the world... why mozart still is known i dont know... but i'm sure 75% of his contemporaries (such as Salerie) never achieved any fame beyond their generation... same with shakespeare who is world famous after so many centuries yet his contemporaries (whom some critics surely thought of as better) are anonymous.

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