Indisputable Abortion FACTS:

[Robert]

Originally posted by monolith94
I believe in reincarnation, so for me, an abortion doesn't really matter - the soul will just go to some other place instead.

Does that sound whacked and new-agey? I hope not.

thus you think it's ok to kill any human being....... they'll reincarnate anyway.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Sava
oh BTW, ADOPTION, isn't an option if the pregnancy is high risk (i.e. the mother could die)...

I think in such cases abortion is an option.
In this case you have to chose between the life of the mother and the life of the baby.
I would chose the mother in such a case.

[Robert]

Originally posted by orange
but can it live on its own? No. Until it can, it is a parasite. Good day.

Can a born baby live on it's own?

[Robert]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Yes. God forbid the parents go abroad to abort, or that they resort to back alley crooks and butchers to perform an unhealthy and dangerous abortion. God forbid the parents of unwanted children kill the infant after birth. God forbid the parents to blame all their mishaps to the kid and make its life a hell. God forbid the too young mother isn't mature enough to raise her kids satisfyingly.

Mankind has never seen such a thing, ever !

Mankind has seen that oftenly enough!
There are millions of mothers who have raised their children under circustumstanses you mentioned.

And about those parents who'll make the life of their children like hell, again, that's such a small group......
And that happens among 'wanted' children as well.

It all comes down that the child has to pay for the wrongs of the parents.
Because the parents want their perfect life, their child must die.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Spiffor

There is a roadblock only in your mind. This imaginary roadblock is to consider the destruction of a foetus as "murder". This imaginary roadblock doesn't exist in my mind, and I have no problem with my position.

Hitler didn't got a roadblock in his mind that told him not to kill 6.000.000 jews.
If we would all do whatever would be justified in our minds this world would be even worse as it already is.

In fact this world is already what it is because we all do already that whatever comes into our mind.
We all prefer things we like and hate things that make things complex.

And if something makes your life more complex, it's easy to find reasons to remove your roadblock.
Any human is capable to make it's own wrong action feel right to himself.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I wouldn't lower myself discussing on whether an embryo is a human being at a 3 months pregnancy.

This issue has nothing to do with the real issue of abortion : whether the kid and the parents can live a good life after birth or not. It's pretty easy to oppose abortion when you have no chance of ruining your life because of an unwanted pregnancy yourselves. I'm sure that would be wholly different if you had to cope with the result of some accidental sex during the rest of your life.

FIrst how can you have "accidental sex"???? You chose to have sex or not, it is not an accident. An accident is when you are driving in your car down the street and someone runs a red light and hits you. Second If someone has sex out of marriage and does not use birth controll and a baby results, maybe those people should take responsiblity for what they created instead of thinking its ok because I can throw it away like some piece of trash. This is a human life. Would you support the killing of child that is on the streets or unwanted by the parent? WHy would it be no different with a fetus.

When it comes to Human Rights we do not just take them away from someone because we think that they will live bad lives and kill them right there. You have no idea what will happen to that child, all you have is a guess. A fetus cant voice it self ever and the legal system never considers maybe they do have rights after all. Even people who have brain damage have rights, even brain dead people. Why not so with a fetus?

[monolith94]

"WHY is a human foetus not human - please define for me"
No memories, no motivations, no desires, no true thoughts.

"thus you think it's ok to kill any human being....... they'll reincarnate anyway."
Hardly - to kill a living person extinguishes far more than just the shell that is one's body - it extinguishes that person's memories, their ability to do good in the world, shortens the time they have with people they love... in short, it does many, many poor things, indeed.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by CyberShy

Rex Little: Even if we agree that a fetus is a human being with full human rights, that does not include the right to live inside another person's body without her consent.

That's insane!
Every woman knows that if she has s.e.x. with a man without protection and without using the morning after pil, she runs the risk of getting pregnant.

It's not as if the baby came in here out of nothing!
It's because of what the mother did!
She is responsible for her own actions.

I'm pro-choise!
A woman can chose to not have s.e.x.
A woman can chose to use anti-conception
A woman can chose to use the morning after pill.

If she refused to chose, she should take her responsibilities.
It's not like "I can live the fun life I want, and if something happens as a result of my fun I'll just kill it"

Do you actually have statistics which show that this is the usual cause of abortions?

"Pro-life" types often complain about rape victims being brought into the argument, because they're "not typical". How typical is the use of abortion purely as retroactive contraception for women too lazy or stupid to use contraception?

There is no such thing as a 100% safe contraceptive. Many women who seek abortions DID take reasonable precautions against getting pregnant, but it happened anyhow. That's not the woman's fault. Nor is it her fault if she was abandoned by the man she asumed would hang around to help support the kid. These are the main causes of the abortions that I'm most familiar with.

[Robert]

Originally posted by monolith94
"WHY is a human foetus not human - please define for me"
No memories, no motivations, no desires, no true thoughts.

"thus you think it's ok to kill any human being....... they'll reincarnate anyway."
Hardly - to kill a living person extinguishes far more than just the shell that is one's body - it extinguishes that person's memories, their ability to do good in the world, shortens the time they have with people they love... in short, it does many, many poor things, indeed.

for the fetis you do kill their ability to do good to the world, you shorten their time they can spend with people they love completely.

And about the 'lost memories'
When you're death it doesn't matter how much momories you had, they're gone anyway.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by Jack_www Even people who have brain damage have rights, even brain dead people. Why not so with a fetus?

What rights does a brain-dead person have?

[Robert]

How typical is the use of abortion purely as retroactive contraception for women too lazy or stupid to use contraception?

There is no such thing as a 100% safe contraceptive. Many women who seek abortions DID take reasonable precautions against getting pregnant, but it happened anyhow. That's not the woman's fault.

It's not only the anticonception I brought up as a choise.
Having s.e.x. is such a choise as well.

Everybody knows that having s.e.x. eventually can lead to conception.

Nor is it her fault if she was abandoned by the man she asumed would hang around to help support the kid. These are the main causes of the abortions that I'm most familiar with.

If people wouldn't shop around having s.e.x. with everybody it wouldn't happen that oftenly (it would still happen of course) that the father would be long gone.

It's just a way of life. If you chose to live a free se.xual life, you know that you might get a kid without a father.
It's still a choise.

[Jack the Bodiless]

It's not only the anticonception I brought up as a choise.
Having s.e.x. is such a choise as well.

Everybody knows that having s.e.x. eventually can lead to conception.

And everyone knows that driving a car can eventually lead to serious injury or death.

So, if a motorist gets injured or killed in an accident they didn't cause: it's still their fault for choosing to drive at all?

Nor is it her fault if she was abandoned by the man she asumed would hang around to help support the kid. These are the main causes of the abortions that I'm most familiar with.

If people wouldn't shop around having s.e.x. with everybody it wouldn't happen that oftenly (it would still happen of course) that the father would be long gone.

It's just a way of life. If you chose to live a free se.xual life, you know that you might get a kid without a father.
It's still a choise.

Where did you get the notion that such women are promiscuous?

You assume that every abandoned woman is a slut?

Again, do you have any facts to support these stereotypes?

[Q Classic]

a baby, when you get down to it, is a parasite. he or she doesn't stop being a parasite until they move out of the home and get their own damn job.

now, killing the parasite when they're in the home is supposedly a heinous crime. why would killing the parasite in the womb be any different? it's just a change in residency.

personally, i think abortion is murder; i also believe, however, that the government at this time cannot legislate against it because there are huge differences in opinion as to whether a three week old fetus is human or not; there is no question as to whether it is alive or not.
the best thing to do is try and convince those women who want abortions against it. try and persuade their minds, but in the end, be accepting of their decision.
love the sinner, hate the sin, so to speak.

[Robert]

And everyone knows that driving a car can eventually lead to serious injury or death.

So, if a motorist gets injured or killed in an accident they didn't cause: it's still their fault for choosing to drive at all?

I think being killed or injured isn't quiet the same as getting a baby.

Where did you get the notion that such women are promiscuous?

You assume that every abandoned woman is a slut?

I didn't say it applied to all of the women in which case the father left.
But it'll happen more to short-term-relations that the father left within 4 months after the conception than to long-term relations.

That's not factual, that's logical.

Besides that, that women who prefer short-term relations are sluts are your words.
All I said was that it's their choise, and they have to live with the concequences.

Again, do you have any facts to support these stereotypes?

You need facts to explain that something ilogic

[Robert]

In the Netherlands a research was done to abortion, several years ago.
People were having their babies aborted because they has planned a vacation, because they just got a dog, because they would have to live on lower standards, because they couldn't affort the 2nd car.

Much people who are pregnant take a decision if they keep it or abort it. It's not like only in difficult situation abortion is concidered. Much mothers concider it anyway. It's like an option.