Comrades, Pick me Apart

[Sava]

They have many church owned farms. One article I read in TIME several years ago, says that they have the second largest beef holdings in the entire country.

It's like a nightmarish form of theocracy rather than communism.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Odin
This thread has been to death. Can we please get back on topic.

Uber, you seem to contradict yourself when you say you are a socialist and then say communism has failled. It has failed so far, but you are wrong, I believe, on that it will never work. Once people get enlightened and get out of the hole of Materialism dug by capitalism we are on are way to utopia. Humans are not naturally greedy, it is a result of psycological reinforcement in childhood (corporations get kids' parents to pay big $$$ to keep the kids "cool" via advertising) ( Ming).

Funny thing is, while you may be right, people don't want to, and probably never will become enlightened.

ACK!

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Sava
It's like a nightmarish form of theocracy rather than communism.

I took many classes that pertained to the Mormon church, they don't come out and say anything directly about communism, but they describe things in ways that are similar to what you guys have preached here.

ACK!

[Odin]

Sava, my view is that communism can be implemented democratically by teaching people the reality of the communist movement so people accept communism instead of automatically saying the typical "you traitorous Stalin-lover" crap we are made out to br by capitalist propaganda. One they realize they had been had by the capitalists we will start to get ground, it will take a while, prehaps longer than a century or two , but in time we we become the majority and we can enact things democratically. Most people will come to hate capitalism and most democracies will be dominated by Commies, greens, and social dems. Basically a one-party system that is kept that way because people don't want anything else. I am a Communist but I disagree with Marx and Lenin on a lot of things. My goal is to inform people before it gets so bad that blood will be shed in Class Warfare of it's truest, most literal sense.

[Ming]

Last warning folks...
And Tuberski you are one spam post away from a restriction...

[Sava]

Sava, my view is that communism can be implemented democratically by teaching people the reality of the communist movement so people accept communism instead of automatically saying the typical "you traitorous Stalin-lover" crap we are made out to br by capitalist propaganda. One they realize they had been had by the capitalists we will start to get ground, it will take a while, prehaps longer than a century or two , but in time we we become the majority and we can enact things democratically. Most people will come to hate capitalism and most democracies will be dominated by Commies, greens, and social dems. Basically a one-party system that is kept that way because people don't want anything else. I am a Communist but I disagree with Marx and Lenin on a lot of things. My goal is to inform people before it gets so bad that blood will be shed in Class Warfare of it's truest, most literal sense.

Communism is a fools' errand... a system is needed to control society... or else there is anarchy. And true Communism has more to do with changing humanity's values rather than instituting a system. I'm sorry, but you aren't going to change people or make them be nice to each other. The best you can hope is provide equal opprotunities for those willing to work, take care of those who can't, and provide successful safety nets for those whole fall victim to tough times.

And frankly, the term has been demonized so much that it's utterly useless to try and convince people otherwise.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Ming
Last warning folks...
And Tuberski you are one spam post away from a restriction...

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was spamming, I apologize.

ACK!

[Kidlicious]

Re: Comrades, Pick me Apart

Originally posted by Uber KruX
Flipping the pyramid.

We’ve all heard about pyramid schemes, we’ve all probably seen one or two; we know how they work. Capitalism is nothing more than a state sanctioned pyramid scheme, the smaller, rich upper class sits atop the work of the lower, massive working classes, a few profiting off the work of many. As stated above, however, America is producing more and more upper-middle-class citizens, who will eventually make the leap from middle to upper class. This is how the system in America works: A family emigrates from their native land, be it in Europe, Africa, Asia, or South America. The initial immigrants are usually uneducated, and they become manual laborers. They have joined the lower working class. They work very hard, and provide their children with the chances that they didn’t have. This first step may last between one and three generations, each generation being born into a wealthier family, moving slowly up the pyramid. Eventually, one of the children has the opportunity to go to college, or to master a trade, to essentially hit it big, to have made it to the top of the middle class. This child, or perhaps his child, will then have the opportunity to make the leap into the upper class. Now, you’re probably looking at this and nodding along, this is the glory of capitalism, a family coming here with nothing and eventually working their way to the elite, this is the American dream. This is the demise of capitalism. In short, too many people are going to college, too many people are reaching the top of the pyramid, too many people are reaching the economically elite, too many people are attempting to profit off the backs of the working class. We have become dependent on a steady flow of immigrants to profit off of, our nation is simply growing too “top heavy”, the pyramid is flipping, and eventually it will fall upon itself.

As Imran has stated I disagree. Can you explain why you think this will happen?

[Kidlicious]

I also disagree that selfishness is innate. Some people do tend to be selfish, but even they can suprise you in the right environment. Take away the need to compete for scarce resources and man will be a whole different animal.

That being said, people do need a kick in the ass sometimes.

[Kramerman]

Do you truely believe a classless society can exist. Even in a truely equal society, I STILL think classes will exist. Even though they make the same money, the doctor or the lawyer will be a higher 'class' of respect than a farmer, say. Class may evolve into a 'better' version of class (depending on your definition of class), but it'll never go away, I think.

I agree with Imran on this point. In sociology, its a known point that different occupations almost universally carry varying degrees of prestige. Doctors (or healers) are seen throught many cultures as more prestigious than artists. And where there is prestigem, there is influence, adn where there is influence, there is power... *and* where there is power there are different classes

[Kramerman]

This is the demise of capitalism. In short, too many people are going to college, too many people are reaching the top of the pyramid, too many people are reaching the economically elite, too many people are attempting to profit off the backs of the working class. We have become dependent on a steady flow of immigrants to profit off of, our nation is simply growing too “top heavy”, the pyramid is flipping, and eventually it will fall upon itself. '

not necessarily, as more people go to college, it is just more competetive, and more education is required for new jobs. You will always have people wh drop out of high school, let alone not go to college. a number of those will go to technical schools and stuff... its always been like this. Its has changed a lot since the US switched toward a service based industries in the 70s from manufacturing based, it is just becoming more competetive, which is good. The best and brightest will fill the top spots, most of the time, which is how it should be

EDIT: as a side note, i used to have a similar theory to yours, but just very briefly

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kramerman


I agree with Imran on this point. In sociology, its a known point that different occupations almost universally carry varying degrees of prestige. Doctors (or healers) are seen throught many cultures as more prestigious than artists. And where there is prestigem, there is influence, adn where there is influence, there is power... *and* where there is power there are different classes

Prestige doesn't amount to power unless the law allows it to.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Odin
This thread has been to death. Can we please get back on topic.

Uber, you seem to contradict yourself when you say you are a socialist and then say communism has failled. It has failed so far, but you are wrong, I believe, on that it will never work. Once people get enlightened and get out of the hole of Materialism dug by capitalism we are on are way to utopia. Humans are not naturally greedy, it is a result of psycological reinforcement in childhood (corporations get kids' parents to pay big $$$ to keep the kids "cool" via advertising) ( Ming).

i'm saying that past instances have failed, and rather than give up we should learn from them. i don't know how i gave the message of me thinking communism will always fail.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Prestige doesn't amount to power unless the law allows it to.

yes it does, just it wont be as major if the law doesnt allow it. prestige allows you to influence others, and this is power.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
The core of the argument isn't about "agnostic," it's about the misrepresentation of Atheists as believing there is no god, when the majority of athiests merely just do not believe God exists.

Let's put it this way. The majority of people who call themselves atheists state there is no God. Those who state that there is no way of knowing do not call themselves atheists but rather agnostics.