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  • #151
    No Pekka, I'm not
    But I suspect that whatever good EU will ever achieve you will probably still be unhappy with it. I know many people like that in northern Sweden. They are against EU because they don't like it
    I'm not saying you are like that, but you do sound like it.
    The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.

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    • #152
      Hersh, I'll answer to you when I get back, time to BBQ!!

      But I disagree with the most points you said right there, not all, but most.

      edit: I meant to say AGREE, not disagree..

      Keep on debating, and bring BRITNEY!

      Combat Ingrid, well, let's just say I'm little sceptic, but if I see real victories, I'll promise to recognize them. Also I promise that I will change my opinion on this matter if future proves me wrong.

      I didn't say Europe or EU is evil or bad. I'm just saying, it is not all that, what people are trying to say it is. At least not yet. Maybe in the future, just maybe, if we're lucky and fortunate enough, then _maybe_.

      I'm just bashing the TRUE EUROs here mostly. I have no problems with Europeans or Europe. I have never claimed I have problems with them. And the fact that I am one of them is a fact, and I'm not denying it. But I said that I don't identify myself with it. Well let's say if we were to become one big happy family, maybe I would feel it if enough time was given. But as of now, as the current situation is, we're still only talk and air and myth.

      Maybe it will become reality one day, I hope so even if I don't sound like it, I hope nothing but good things for Europe and EU, but ... well we will just have to see about it. NOW I'm out of here. Pork ribs and beer. Mmmm...
      Last edited by Pekka; July 30, 2003, 10:54.
      In da butt.
      "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
      THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
      "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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      • #153
        Originally posted by HershOstropoler


        Of course.

        Just not in the bastardized english meaning.
        Please elaborate. Inquiring minds want to know.
        Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
        Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
        Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

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        • #154
          Originally posted by Saras


          Please elaborate. Inquiring minds want to know.
          In the most simple version:
          Federal in english usually implies advocating centralisation in a state.
          Föderal in german is just describing decentralised systems beyond a certain level of integration, and not limited to a state.

          The Federalism debate is useless anyway as it's about the right and wrong of definitions. Tell me what you mean by Federalist, and I'll tell you whether I'm one or not.
          “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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          • #155
            "Federal" actually implies a level of decentralisation in a state, as opposed to centralisation.
            "Paul Hanson, you should give Gibraltar back to the Spanish" - Paiktis, dramatically over-estimating my influence in diplomatic circles.

            Eyewerks - you know you want to visit. No really, you do. Go on, click me.

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            • #156
              Pekka: fair enough. Enjoy the beer!
              The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.

              Comment

              • #157
                "Federal" requires a certain level of decentralisation, yes, but Federalist is still often used as advocating more centralisation and/or "statehood", whatever that may be.
                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                • #158
                  In my mind is the old debate at the end of Soviet Union, how moderates in Moscow wanted to transform USSR into a “confederation”, giving us rebels more power but keeping us in, while hardcore commies wanted to keep USSR a “federation”, i.e., the status quo.
                  Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
                  Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
                  Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

                  Comment

                  • #159
                    Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
                    After reading several pages of Pekka's whining EU-critical argumentation, I recalled (for some reason) this quote from "Life of Brian":
                    My favourite "Life of Brian" scene
                    Blah

                    Comment

                    • #160
                      Originally posted by Saras
                      In my mind is the old debate at the end of Soviet Union, how moderates in Moscow wanted to transform USSR into a “confederation”, giving us rebels more power but keeping us in, while hardcore commies wanted to keep USSR a “federation”, i.e., the status quo.
                      Well the USSR has never been a proper federation as the federal elements of the state were overlaid by the centralization of the communist party.

                      Federation vs confederation is a funny topic. There was a long standing disupute in german constitutional doctrine whether the Reich as founded in 1871 was a federation or confederation....
                      “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                      Comment

                      • #161
                        Well, what was it then?
                        Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
                        Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
                        Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

                        Comment

                        • #162
                          I am European. I have lived in the UK, Germany and France. I can speak English, French and German, and I am familiar with the different habits and cultures in each of these countries. I can drive on both sides of the road...

                          What more could you want?

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                          • #163
                            "Well, what was it then?"

                            A mixed system with elements typical for both.

                            Those two are just categories. As the EU really does not fit either, it's often described as supranational. For example direct effect and precedence of Community law is usually found in federations, the implementation need of 2nd and 3rd pillar acts in confederations. Another oddity is a directly elected Parliament that represents peoples, not a single people. Federal or confederal? Pretty meaningless, unless you love specific terms.
                            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                            • #164
                              Well coming back little drunk, I can now do something I will regret and admit I was only pulling your legs.
                              However I still don't feel European. But I was too provocative and tried to get you p.o.'d for my own childish pleasure. I feel stupid that I did it and I apologize to everyone. TRUE EUROs are still a real thing though, and I find them funny folks.

                              And remember this post, it should be enough for you to go with few years, because I rarely apologize. I barely take myself to situation where I have to be sorry later, that's what my daddy taught me. So there.
                              In da butt.
                              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                              Comment

                              • #165
                                Hey Pekka, was that your opinion about the upcoming join-the-Euro-or-not vote in Sweden? Or was it just some drunk bull**** I should forget about? ZZZZZZ!!
                                So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in! - Supercitizen to stupid students
                                Be kind to the nerdiest guy in school. He will be your boss when you've grown up!

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