Basque independentists create a plan to destroy Spain and France

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Yes, but has their local Government the Right to Declare Independence of their Territory?

No, for many reasons being the first the article 1 of the Spanish constitution.

Or demand that there has to be a poll within the Basque Region about declaring independence and that it will only be ratified, if a majority of the Basques is pro Independence.

A few weeks ago there was a poll about conceding more auto govern to the Corsica island. The majority voted no. Which was the independentists answer? The next week they put a bomb. Has this stopped them from asking for independece? No. There was a poll in Qebec about becoming independent from Canada. Did the result have any effect? No, they wanted to make another poll. Probably they think that if they do enough polls they will end winning. Has the North Ireland autonomous government solved anything? I thik not. The palestinian got their own autonomous region and a plan to become a completely independet country. Did that stop them from attacking Israel? No. The colombian government offered the guerrillas an autonomous region to low down the violence and a negotiation period. Did it have any effect? no. I could continue with many other samples.

If you say that a majority of the Basques are against it there won´t be much danger that the Poll will be successful (of course there have to be observers which grant that there are no tries to manipulate the poll )

Sadly there is no guarantee of that. In many villages people go to vote by fear. They have to choose their vote in front of everyone or they will be accused. If they choose the "wrong" option they will be prosecuted. if they come with their option made from house they will be prosecuted.

After all, what does Spain loose with the Basque Territory?

What does the basque people who still want to be Spanish lose? They will probably lose their freedom, as the new government will likely be a fascist one judging from their past actions. They have a well known historial of acting against the Law, and their model is the Cuban state.

Are there many important Resources or large industrial Plants, which are important for Spain?

This is not a civ game. The issue is not about giving a city which has little importance to the other player. It is about people and their way of life.

And as France will never give them those Territorys they seem to claim out of french soil, they will have little to work with, to create a functioning state

Why France can hold the territories and not Spain?

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Ned
Has the issue of independence ever been put to a vote?

The right question is: Will the people who has had to abandon the basque country because of fear or disagreement with the government be allowed to vote? Will the people murdered by the terrorists be allowed to vote?

Sadly there is a lot of misinformation about Spain inside our borders. Lot of people still believe that the basque culture really existed (they even beleive the Romans didn't conquer the area!) ot that those terrorists are freedom fighters. They are plain assassins. That's the reason because Spain supports the US in their fight against terrorism. Sadly we know it very well.

[Ned]

I think anyone originally from the region should be allowed to vote on the issue of independence. We, the US, constantly give the peoples of our territories, such a Puerto Rico, the right to vote on the issue of independence. I don't understand why this is not the right solution for the Basque territories as well.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Ned
I think anyone originally from the region should be allowed to vote on the issue of independence. We, the US, constantly give the peoples of our territories, such a Puerto Rico, the right to vote on the issue of independence. I don't understand why this is not the right solution for the Basque territories as well.

Among many reasons because the government has made a very good propaganda and brain washing job. The school books for children tell lies about Spain and make them hate our country. On the other hand the situation isn't the same. Puerto Rico is a free state that might join or not join the US. The "basque country" (even the name is a triumph of the propaganda) is a completely different thing.

[Ned]

Well, Northern Ireland remains part of the UK because the people of those counties voted to stay. If the people of the Basque territories voted to stay with Spain and France, then I would agree that armed resistance should be fought. Otherwise, I am not so sure that armed resistance is not "legal" in the same sense as our own rebellion against Britain 200 years ago was legal.

[OliverFA]

If you haven't noticed it yet, the independentists don't care about what people think. There is no freedom to speak or to act there. A referendum cannot be done at those circumstancies. Would you believe the results of such a referendum?

[Ned]

Oliver, Just a little bit of history please: Wasn't the Basque territory part of the Roman Empire? All the maps that I have seen seem to suggest that it was.

But if it was, why didn't Latin take hold there as it did elsewhere in Gaul and Hispania?

[Ned]

On the issue of a referendum, I think if it was a secret ballot conducted by the UN, yes I would trust the results.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by OliverFA

No, for many reasons being the first the article 1 of the Spanish constitution.

That´s great, so by no means it can be allowed for the Basques to become independent

Originally posted by OliverFA
A few weeks ago there was a poll about conceding more auto govern to the Corsica island. The majority voted no. Which was the independentists answer? The next week they put a bomb. Has this stopped them from asking for independece? No. There was a poll in Qebec about becoming independent from Canada. Did the result have any effect? No, they wanted to make another poll. Probably they think that if they do enough polls they will end winning. Has the North Ireland autonomous government solved anything? I thik not. The palestinian got their own autonomous region and a plan to become a completely independet country. Did that stop them from attacking Israel? No. The colombian government offered the guerrillas an autonomous region to low down the violence and a negotiation period. Did it have any effect? no. I could continue with many other samples.


Sadly there is no guarantee of that. In many villages people go to vote by fear. They have to choose their vote in front of everyone or they will be accused. If they choose the "wrong" option they will be prosecuted. if they come with their option made from house they will be prosecuted.

Yes, of course, threatening the people which are against the Independence to either vote pro Independence or stay home seems to be a grave Problem, especially if the Threat goes against the weak spots of the Families, like Children.

As for those examples:
Getting their own government and a part of the territory they fought for at least solved the issue for a lot of those who fought for the Independence of Ireland. Of course there were still people who wanted more (those people who at last also murdered the Heroe of their Resistance, Michael Collins) and continued to fight.
As for the Palestinians getting their own Government, this has to be seen. After all I would evaluate this only after Israel has retreated into the Borders of ´67 and the Westbank isn´t a patchwork of Israeli Settlements, Control Posts and palestinian Territory anymore. Til this day I don´t think that any Palestinian government can be fair assessed

Originally posted by OliverFA
What does the basque people who still want to be Spanish lose? They will probably lose their freedom, as the new government will likely be a fascist one judging from their past actions.

This is not a civ game. The issue is not about giving a city which has little importance to the other player. It is about people and their way of life.

But for the Basque Government which has to get the money for running the State through Taxes, Export from Ressources and the like I think Ressources and Industry will be of much importance
The same goes for the spanish State as they would loose a lot of tax money if they allow the Basques to become independent and there are important industrial Plants or like things which make the Basque territories important.
That it does matter to the people living there is out of question, if they are against Independence they would face the consequence of either staying with a government they don´t like and not being spanish anymore, or to emigrate into spanish territories.

As for the form the Government will have. Dunno, I mean there will be a big difference in how they conduct the formation of their new Government. If htere is a cliuque of leaders which are in power since a long time, there will be the danger, that they will try to manipulate things so they stay in power, of course.
If there isn´t, dunno, maybe the Basque Population will get the chance to elect their own government and it might be much more democratic (and maebe even more Spain-friendly) than you assume?

Originally posted by OliverFA

Why France can hold the territories and not Spain?

If Basque could readily declare Independence, backed up by spanish Articles the Reason would be, that France hasn´t granted their Departments the same amount of Independence and those Departments can´t become independent by themselves, whereas that spanish government has enabled the Basques to gain Independence and now has to face the consequences.
But of course, as the Spanish Artivcles (according to the things you wrote) don´t enable the Basques to declare Independence, backed by the Constitution, this question is meaningsless, as it would be against the spanish constitution.

[Buck Birdseed]

OliverFA is an excellent example of precisely why Basques want independence in the first place- Spain (and to an even greater extent France) has spent centuries attempting to deny or romanicise their unique culture, insulting or oppressing their leaders, implanting the area with fiercly oppositional settlers, lauding the supposed virtues of imperialism. I bet a couple of decades ago Oliver here would have been against the teaching of euskadi in schools and the limited autonomy the region actually has...

Main reason I'm for the EU- weakens the national state and allows regions to flourish outside the yoke of power-mad bastards like Oliver.

[Q Classic]

Which reason do you have to believe it? None of the MANY concessions given to them, which are not only but a group of all the basque people has lowered it.

oliver, i will admit that i don't have strong feelings about this situation, nor do i have any real experience with it outside of what i've read.
it is my opinion, though, that ethnic strife tends to go down when ethnic groups are separated by national borders, rather than when they are forcibly mixed.
the balkans, subsaharan africa, central asia and the kurds are all examples of ethnic strife arising due to artificial borders that forcibly mix hostile ethnicities.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
OliverFA is an excellent example of precisely why Basques want independence in the first place- Spain (and to an even greater extent France) has spent centuries attempting to deny or romanicise their unique culture, insulting or oppressing their leaders, implanting the area with fiercly oppositional settlers, lauding the supposed virtues of imperialism. I bet a couple of decades ago Oliver here would have been against the teaching of euskadi in schools and the limited autonomy the region actually has...

Main reason I'm for the EU- weakens the national state and allows regions to flourish outside the yoke of power-mad bastards like Oliver.

can we leave the personal insults , .........

[Dinner]

that document sounds like rubbish. The government should continue to point out how illegal and extreme it is and then smear it's writers. Follow that up with state sponsored force if need be and assert the state will not allow any session from it's territory.

[Richelieu]

I jut love the title of this thread.

[Drake Tungsten]

No offense, Oliver, but I'd be willing to let Spain be destroyed as long as the Basques are taking down France as well. You guys need to take one for the team.