Republican pigheadedness.

[KrazyHorse]

Let's put it this way: I'd see nothing wrong with a pol saying that members of the other party are pigheaded. I would see something wrong with calling them disloyal.

They're both obviously partisan comments which stereotype the opposition, but that's not a problem. That's politics as usual. One of them is an accusation of a serious moral and ethical breach. The other one isn't...

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ming
But, I will nail your ass on the thread title. All your fine words are true, but you went out of your way to attack all Republicans when you made that title.

Alright, then please change the thread title so as to hide the evidence of my previous transgression.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Come on GePap,

Too much baiting on this one.

Think opportunity and not entitlement.

Handup not handout.

Faith in oneself and not the government.

All of which are empty catchphrases After all, IN America, isn't the government made by the people, for the people? And what about the entitlement to opportunity?

The trust of Man is a big difference between conservatives and liberals. Individuals are transiatory, many die far before a "new future" has come into being. So how can trust in the individual mean making a batter future?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Nope,

The insults thrown out in your above example are extreme for the cons and mild for the libs. Yet as is so often pointed out in this and other threads the name calling that gets bandied around on both sides is roughly equivalent and more importantly it is a set of stereotypes that does injustice to a whole category of people.

Bush is an idiot. Bush is a criminal. Trent Lott is a racist etc. etc. etc. from the left. (Feel free to substitute the word Republican in place of any above named leader)

Hillary is a traitor. Daschle doesn't have a backbone. etc. etc. etc. (Feel free to subtitute the word Democrat in place of any above named leader).

Its all a game about who can more effectively discredit the other and it is becoming more about the game and less about governing every day. Partisnaship needs to go. We need an effective 3rd party that more effectively represents the lukewarm centrists.

Huh?

You're mangling two separate points here. One is that attacks on individuals are different than attacks on groups. I, of course, agree with this. The other is the fact that certain (but not all) attacks on groups (most especially political groups) must be accepted as part of partisan politics, the system which has been the cornerstone of Western democracy for 200 years. You can't run a competitive political system based around the party unless the parties are allowed to say bad things about each other. You can, however, run it without the level of insult displayed by calling the opposing side traitors.

[GePap]

The difference is Ogie is this: You mention the names of individuals, but the issue here is parties or ideological leanings.

A republican can very well say "Bush is an idiot, a crminal, or Trent Lott is a racist". To assume that only a Dem. would say so is incorrect.

But can a Dem. say "All Dems. are anti-American scum!"? How could they then self-categorize as Dems? (and no, funny litte "what if they are" respoense will not be answered)

I agree that in the 60's and 70's the left was more vocal and that they acted similarly on the airwaves, but the left-leaning activists on the ground did not have the same access to the political leadership of the times as the fringers of the conservaitves have to the power centers of the Republican party today. After all, would we call Tom Delay part of the fringe, or not? And he is the most powerfull man in the House. Maybe people here want to try, but has someone on the left fringe ever held such a position of power on the Dems? And by fringe I don;t mean simply vocal: Orin Hatch for example is vocally conservative but he is not fringe. As much as people want to demonize Ted Kennedy, he is not fringe. Sharpton is fringe, but does anyont think if the Dems. had power soemone like Sharpton would be in the same position as Delay?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I see as usual, you are attempting to evade the original issue GePap.

Your bias makes you feel that only the left has the best interest of the country at heart. In so stating that core left values are for making a better future. (Defacto premise is that only the left has the best interests for the future in mind.)

You tarred the right by stating that core right values are (paraphrasing) status quo. (defacto premise is that the right is short sided and not fit too lead for the future)

Both right and left have a goal of prosperity and betterment of the whole. The means to accomplish it are different in that cons believe it lies in the hands of individuals and small groups to better themselves and not rely on governmental influence to do so. Whilst left beleives that it is a fundamental responsibility of the government.

Regardless I agree with your original statement that the devisiveness of the current political arena is harmful, but still take exception to your characterization of core left vs. core right.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Huh?

You're mangling two separate points here. One is that attacks on individuals are different than attacks on groups. I, of course, agree with this. The other is the fact that certain (but not all) attacks on groups (most especially political groups) must be accepted as part of partisan politics, the system which has been the cornerstone of Western democracy for 200 years. You can't run a competitive political system based around the party unless the parties are allowed to say bad things about each other. You can, however, run it without the level of insult displayed by calling the opposing side traitors.

So its perfectly fair to call them baby killers and racists. OK I'll go with that.

[GePap]

Actually Ogie, you are the one who "inferred" things that I never wrote. let me clue you in: I mean what I write, which means that to "infer" anything into it is 100% wrong. If I mean it, I write it.

I do think the Right does want to make a better place (though I disgaree with their ideas), but they do not have faith that man throught reason can do it, becuase conservatism does not place a great value on the ability of reason to, by itself, solve the problems. That is why they preffer institutions, speically ones they see as "natural", such as God and religions, The Family (hence the need to 'defend the family'), and Country.

[KrazyHorse]

Where did I say it was okay to call Republicans baby killers and racists?

Get some reading skills. I said the exact opposite.

To phrase it in simpler language:

1) I said it was okay to call individuals really bad things based on their own actions

2) I said it was unacceptable to call a similarly-minded group of people (such as, say, the Republican Party) really bad things (except in, say, extreme situations such as with the Nazi party, the KKK etc.)

3) I said it was okay to aim mild insults (such as pigheaded, impractical etc.) at the general political opposition since that is part of the foundation of party politics.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

KH,

I'm fine with that. My point simply was (as others have stated) the boorish behavior is not the province of conservatives alone. And IMO is equal in ferocity for both left and right factions. And for the record somethign I'm sick of.

Thanks for making it readable for a poor unenlightened conservative.

[KrazyHorse]

You'd be unenlightened whether or not you were conservative.

What's up with delaware, anyway?

I drove through it for 10 miles and was charged 6$ in tolls.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by GePap

[bold]I think the "core conservative mindset", which is "we are defending what is right, how things should be now" is more prone to then attack its enemies as "evil" than the "core liberal mindset" which is "we are tryin to create a better tommorrow, aiming for what is best": people who don;t see the better tommorrow are to be seen as idiots and fools who are shortsighted. Now, this is a generalization: plenty of liberals are prone to assauting conservatives as nazi racists kilers, but they are more of a fring than the conservatives who call liberals evil commie murderers.[/bold]

GePap

How could I have ever read anything into this? Sorry if I screwed up the defacto premises but it seems pretty clear what you were trying to say (at least to me).

Care to clarify?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You'd be unenlightened whether or not you were conservative.

What's up with delaware, anyway?

I drove through it for 10 miles and was charged 6$ in tolls.

Only charged if your a helpless hopeless lib.

[KrazyHorse]

I went through two frigging tollbooths in the space of 5 miles along one road.

[Dinner]

I don't remember ever driving though Deleware before. I did go from SC to MS once but I was young and wasn't driving so I doubt I ever saw that state.