Is humanity (collectively) going to hell?

[Giancarlo]

Oh please... you can go back to your human being invented god and let me be.

[Sava]

What an odd question for an Atheist.
Why would you even have this question?
If God doesn't exist, Hell doesn't exist.

I'm a "soft-atheist". I don't believe in any human religions, but I acknowledge the possibility exists. Perhaps it's wishful thinking, or some repressed level of faith, but I suspect there will be consequences for our actions when we die. There are two real possibilities, neither can be proven true... so I am simply examining the possible outcomes for all cases. If there isn't accountability for our actions, then people can act evil without consequence. And somehow, that doesn't seem right to me.

Anyways, I'm disappointed you d1ckheads had to threadjack and turn this into a commie/cappie trollfest. Take that **** elsewhere. Discuss the topic.

And besides, the system is irrelevant. If humans were inherently good, any system of government would have good results. And vice-versa, if humans are bad, than any system of government will have bad results.

[Velociryx]

Oh goody...another thread that devolved into a communism vs. capitalism thread. My favorite topic....

Look Reds....as much as I know you would love it if your theory had ANY (even a shred) basis or grounding in the real world, it doesn't. That's sad, because on paper, it looks really...."interesting", but it's got two problems:

1) It's not scalable (ie - not applicable to nation-sized groups)

and

2) In its pure form, it creates a power vacuum that WILL BE exploited by those with a desire for power.

Those aren't just problems that you can tweak something here and adjust something there and get it all fixed up, those are fundamental flaws in the design of the system that make it absolutely untentable.

Communism is not the future. The big red pony was trotted out, ran a few races, and died a quiet death.

-=Vel=-

[Immortal Wombat]

Why has everyone who attacked capitalism in this thread been labelled a communist? Agathon's first post was pretty sensible in fact, and didn't mention alternatives to capitalism once. Simply saying capitalism is crap doesn't mean you're saying communism is better.

Either that or some bright spark will manage to genetically engineer greed and irrationality out of our natures

[Elok]

As many of you have noted, I have a dim view of human nature, but I don't actually think we're intrinsically evil. We are simply in a position of having to choose the least of many different evils in an imperfect world, a mission at which we regularly succeed. This is more or less the one reason for my belief in god, that good can so consistently be shifted to work for the purposes of evil, and evil for good. It's also the main reason why I have little faith in the saving power of scientific progress. Most human suffering is caused by human error or greed, so more efficient systems of this or that only provide a new tool for abuse. I don't believe in slippery slopes or a single apocalyptic error proving the doom of mankind, a la Terminator. I think we're just going to keep working ourselves and each other through the same misery we've always taken, making new miseries as we dispose of the old, until we decide to stop playing games. Which isn't likely to happen, so I'm with Candide on this one. Just fight as best you can, on a battlefield you can manage.

[MrFun]

I thought this was going to be an interesting PHILOSOPHICAL thread.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


As opposed to the problem called "communism" which roughly means that a group of self-designated elites forcefully decides what they think your interests should be vis-a-vis your usefulness to them and their interest of maintaining power and control over every facet of your life, all the while decrying this as a temporary and necessary measure.

Don't know what you are talking about old son.

At least you could do me the service of not assuming that I beliEve in 50 year old Stalinist methods. Otherwise you are beginning to sound like a broken record.

[Sava]

STFU with communism/capitalism!!!!

[Agathon]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


The whole nature of capitalism is to allow people, individually or in whatever groups they may choose, to (a) determine their own problems, (b) determine their own priorities, and (c) determine their own solutions to those problems in accordance with their priorities.

By definition, we don't deign to decide for you what the "solutions" to your "problems" are, and then impose what we decide is best for you.

Bull. If you're poor it is effectively decided for you. I can't believe that you would say something so blatantly false.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Oh goody...another thread that devolved into a communism vs. capitalism thread. My favorite topic....

Look Reds....as much as I know you would love it if your theory had ANY (even a shred) basis or grounding in the real world, it doesn't. That's sad, because on paper, it looks really...."interesting", but it's got two problems:

1) It's not scalable (ie - not applicable to nation-sized groups)

and

2) In its pure form, it creates a power vacuum that WILL BE exploited by those with a desire for power.

Those aren't just problems that you can tweak something here and adjust something there and get it all fixed up, those are fundamental flaws in the design of the system that make it absolutely untentable.

Communism is not the future. The big red pony was trotted out, ran a few races, and died a quiet death.

-=Vel=-

If any of this was true it would be a worry. I suppose you know that "communism" or "socialism" are not monolithic theories but cover a range of theories which have similar aims and values.

Now we've got that elementary point out of the way, how about realising that you don't have to be committed to central planning if you are a communist. After all there is no a priori link between workers owning the means of production and central planning just as there is no a priori link between the bourgeoisie owning the means of production and central planning.

Those on the contemporary left don't much go in for central planning as they go in for smart regulation of markets through things like Pigovian taxes. Flogging dead Stalinist horses is not really providing a timely argument.

The present system is a manifest failure. The fact that there are sufficient resources to feed and house the whole of humanity and yet there are starving, homeless people is enough to damn the present system.

[Elok]

Shh...if you listen veeeery carefully, you can hear the arteries in Sava's head popping with rage...

Seriously though, I second him for once. This threadjack is getting out of hand.

[GePap]

NO, humanity is not going to hell, for one, becuase such a thing does not exists. For two, ebcuase there are no such things as "good" and "evil" in an absolute sense.

Man's nature includes the abilities which lead to us creating value judgements such as "good" and "evil". With time they change (all except those most basic to maintaining a social roder, which is key for a social being like homo sapiens sapiens) as our conditions change.

[Elok]

Originally posted by GePap
NO, humanity is not going to hell, for one, becuase such a thing does not exists. For two, ebcuase there are no such things as "good" and "evil" in an absolute sense.

Man's nature includes the abilities which lead to us creating value judgements such as "good" and "evil". With time they change (all except those most basic to maintaining a social roder, which is key for a social being like homo sapiens sapiens) as our conditions change.

Bah. Shades of gray are just what people who need glasses see when they look at a black-and-white checkerboard. The statement that there is no good or evil is just self-assured intellectual vanity used to justify our own moral weakness.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
STFU with communism/capitalism!!!!

Sorry Sava, but if you don't want this debate bring some serious solutions to capitalism to the table. Then we can debate them.

[Sava]

Sorry Sava, but if you don't want this debate bring some serious solutions to capitalism to the table. Then we can debate them.

No... it is irrelevant to the discussion. Humanity has proved time and time again that the political system has little bearing on the level of evil. I've warned the mod's so threadjack at your own risk. I won't respond to your petty squabbling anymore.