Another victory for the ZOG: doctored documents "prove" Liberty attack to be an error

[Panag]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


So did they start that before the end of their more than decade long shuffle to avoid compensation to either the US government to the families, or after?

Not much worry of it happening again, since we can now get the same results without slow, vulnerable ships off of people's coasts.

hi ,

, at least since 87 , ...... seen it since then ( dont know if it was since before ) , can ask around , .....

have a great day

[Edan]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


It would have taken a lot more work and a lot more time to actually sink it. It would also have been a bit less possible to claim it was an accident, as well.

Depends. Lesss survivors means less witnessess

If the mission had been to go after a warship, the aircraft used wouldn't have been armed up with ARM's and CBU's. Both of those are useless against an armored cruiser, and almost useless for sinking an Egyptian horse transporter, but real effective against microwave antennas and satellite dishes.

They were armed for attacking infintry cause they had just been returning from a bombing run against Egyptian Infinitry.

And why torpedo the ship if you're only going for the antennas and satellite dishes?

The risk is only if our bought off politicians wouldn't accept the "Gee, it was an accident, again and again and again" story. The US government had (and has) it's nose so far up Israel's ass that all that was needed was a semi-plausible excuse.

Back in 1967? After 1967, that might fit, but not during or before 1967. The US was an important ally only because the French (and to some extent the british) had stopped being allies. It was only after the '67 war that the US stepped up to "have it's nose so far up Israel's ass". (No doubt because the US was fearful of yet another attack by those rutheless zionists.... )

Uhhhhhhhhh..... nice try, but standard radio receivers listening to ship to ship and air to ground voice traffic on nearby aircraft and patrol boats involved in the attack is a bit different from the antenna array on the Liberty, which basically had the capability of picking up all RF traffic within several hundred miles.

Even if that is the case, It still is remarkably stupid to draw attention to yourself like that, especially when it's easier to simply use methods of communication that aren't tapable.

]

[Edan]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


So did they start that before the end of their more than decade long shuffle to avoid compensation to either the US government to the families, or after?

Within 48 hours, Israel already offered to pay compensation.

Not much worry of it happening again, since we can now get the same results without slow, vulnerable ships off of people's coasts

Nope, now we get it with slow, vulnerable Spy Airplanes off China's coast.

[Panag]

WWMCCS
Worldwide Military Command and Control System
The worldwide deployment of U.S. forces required extensive long-range communications systems that can maintain contact with all of those forces at all times. To enable national command authorities to exercise effective command and control of their widely dispersed forces, a communications system was established to enable those authorities to disseminate their decisions to all subordinate units, under any conditions, within minutes.

Such a command and control system, WWMCCS, was created by DOD Directive S-5100.30, titled "Concept of Operations of the Worldwide Military Command and Control System," which set the overall policies for the integration of the various command and control elements that were rapidly coming into being in the early 1960s.

As initially established, WWMCCS was an arrangement of personnel, equipment (including Automated Data Processing equipment and hardware), communications, facilities, and procedures employed in planning, directing, coordinating, and controlling the operational activities of U.S. military forces.

This system was intended to provide the president and the secretary of defense a means to receive warning and intelligence information, assign military missions, provide direction to the unified and specified commands, and support the Joint Chiefs of Staff in carrying out their responsibilities. The directive establishing the system stressed five essential system characteristics: survivability, flexibility, compatibility, standardization, and economy.

Despite the original intent, WWMCCS never realized the full potential that had been envisioned for the system. The services' approach to WWMCCS depended upon the availability of both technology and funding to meet individual requirements, so no truly integrated system emerged. Indeed, during the 1960s, WWMCCS consisted of a loosely knit federation of nearly 160 different computer systems, using 30 different general purpose software systems at 81 locations. One study claimed that WWMCCS was "more a federation of self-contained subsystems than an integrated set of capabilities."

The problems created by these diverse subsystems were apparently responsible for several well-publicized failures of command and control during the latter part of the 1960s.

During hostilities between Israel and Egypt in June 1967, the USS Liberty, a naval reconnaissance ship, was ordered by the JCS to move further away from the coastlines of the billigerents. Five high-priority messages to that effect were sent to the Liberty, but none arrived for more than 13 hours. By that time the ship had become the victim of an apparently mistaken attack by Israeli aircraft and patrol boats that killed 34 Americans.

A congressional committee investigating this incident concluded, "The circumstances surrounding the misrouting, loss and delays of those messages constitute one of the most incredible failures of communications in the history of the Department of Defense."

The result of these various failures was a growth in the centralized management of WWMCCS, occurring at about the same time that changing technology brought in computers and electronic displays.

For example, 27 command centers were equipped with standard Honeywell 6000 computers and common programs so there could be a rapid exchange of information among the command centers.

An assistant secretary of defense for Telecommunications was established, and a 1971 DOD directive gave that person the primary staff responsibility for all WWMCCS-related systems. That directive also designated the Chairman of the JCS as the official responsible for the operation of WWMCCS.

The World-Wide Military Command and Control System (WWMCCS) Intercomputer Network (WIN) was a centrally managed information processing and exchange network consisting of large-scale computer systems at geographically separate locations, interconnected by a dedicated wide-band, packet-switched communications subsystem. The architecture of the WIN consists of WWMCCS-standard AN/FYQ-65(V) host computers and their WIN-dedicated Honeywell 6661 Datanets and Datanet 8's connected through Bolt Beranek and Newman, Inc. (BBN) C/30 and C/30E packet switching computers called Packet Switching Nodes (PSNs) and wideband, encrypted, dedicated, data communications circuits.

By the early 1980s, it was time to modernize this system. The replacement, proposed by the deputy secretary of defense, was an evolutionary upgrade program known as the WWMCCS Information System [WIS], which provided a range of capabilities appropriate for the diverse needs of the WWMCCS sites.

During Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm, WWMCCS performed flawlessly 24 hours a day, seven days a week; providing critical data to combat commanders worldwide in deploying, relocating and sustaining allied forces.

However, WWMCCS was dependent on a proprietary mainframe environment. Information cannot be easily entered or accessed by users, and the software cannot be quickly modified to accommodate changing mission requirements. Operational flexibility and adaptability are limited, since most of the information and software are stored on the mainframe. The system architecture is unresponsive, inflexible, and expensive to maintain.

This new WWMCCS Information System configuration continued to be refined until 1992 when the assistant secretary of defense for command, control, communications, and intelligence terminated this latest attempt to modernize the WWMCCS ADP equipment.

The continuing need to meet established requirements which couldn't be fulfilled, coupled with a growing dissatisfaction among users with the existing WWMCCS system, drove the conceptualizing of a new system, called GCCS.

On August 30, 1996, Lieutenant General Albert J. Edmonds, Director, Defense Information Systems Agency, officially deactivated the World Wide Military Command and Control System (WWMCCS) Intercomputer Network (WIN). Concurrently, the Joint Staff declared the Global Command and Control System (GCCS) as the joint command and control system of record.

[muxec]

People, friendly fire accidents always happen, and sometimes nobody knows who was guilty. I cant get the point... What are you discusing for a 100+ posts?

[Edan]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
What risk? The Israelis have known for decades that the US government firmly has it's nose up your government's asses.

That certainly isn't true in 1967. And if it was, don't you think that the ZOG could have gotten some weapon sold to it from the US, apart from a few HAWK anti-aircraft missles? Especially with their main arms supplier - France - embargoing Israel?

If the Israelis were being naughty, and got caught, or if the Israeli version of who attacked who and when and where wasn't quite kosher, or if the Israelis were concerned about operational security. Better safe and pretending to be sorry, then really sorry you got burned.

But if the Israeli's had the US government firmly in it's grasp, why be worried about it?

[Panag]

Originally posted by Edan




Within 48 hours, Israel already offered to pay compensation.



Nope, now we get it with slow, vulnerable Spy Airplanes off China's coast.

hi ,

true , something like 6 millions or so was payed very fast , later there was again something like 6 million

have a nice day

[Edan]

Originally posted by muxec
People, friendly fire accidents always happen, and sometimes nobody knows who was guilty.

Well, IMNSHO, It was negligence on both sides coupled with bad luck, but no malice.

I cant get the point... What are you discusing for a 100+ posts?

Why make a point in 10 posts when you can make it in 100?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Edan


Depends. Lesss survivors means less witnessess

No survivors might well mean the US decides to cut you off, and not worry how well y'all can swim.

They were armed for attacking infintry cause they had just been returning from a bombing run against Egyptian Infinitry.

So they just happened to be loaded with enough ordnance to make multiple passes, after that bombing run? What, one plane dropped one bomb in the desert? Nice cover.

And why torpedo the ship if you're only going for the antennas and satellite dishes?

The antennas and satelite dishes are to (a) prevent distress calls, (b) prevent ongoing recording and eavesdropping.

That doesn't do you much good if you don't take out the compartment with all the crypto equipment, SIGINT processors and recorders, and also, incidentally, the majority of the NSA personnel who actually conducted the mission.

Back in 1967? After 1967, that might fit, but not during or before 1967. The US was an important ally only because the French (and to some extent the british) had stopped being allies. It was only after the '67 war that the US stepped up to "have it's nose so far up Israel's ass". (No doubt because the US was fearful of yet another attack by those rutheless zionists.... )

In 1967, the US was increasingly interested in Israel as a counter to local Soviet proxies, in the prevailing cold war view. The same reason that the US discovered a deep, abiding love for Turkey. The added twist is that Jewish vote in the US, which is real helpful for Presidential candidates to cultivate.

Since we didn't like y'all so much in '67 or prior, then I suppose those F-4's and A-4's you got were French or Brit made?

Or, we just had those lying around for another customer?

Even if that is the case, It still is remarkably stupid to draw attention to yourself like that, especially when it's easier to simply use methods of communication that aren't tapable.

Landlines are real inconvenient.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by panag



hi ,

true , something like 6 millions or so was payed very fast , later there was again something like 6 million

have a nice day

The ship cost over 200 million. In 1966. Compensation was finally settled, and paid, during the Carter administration.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Edan


Well, IMNSHO, It was negligence on both sides coupled with bad luck, but no malice.

How mother****ing negligent to be operating a ship in international waters with the US flag and US identifying markings on it.

And no, there was no malice, the continued strafing and small caliber shellfire when the ship was on fire and virtually immobile was really an effort to communicate. All just a cultural misunderstanding.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Edan


That certainly isn't true in 1967. And if it was, don't you think that the ZOG could have gotten some weapon sold to it from the US, apart from a few HAWK anti-aircraft missles? Especially with their main arms supplier - France - embargoing Israel?

The US was fairly busy a few thousand miles to the east. Not to mention this little thing called a "cold war"

But if the Israeli's had the US government firmly in it's grasp, why be worried about it?

A friendly little message to "**** off, this is our business" a la all those rather well publicized little "incidents" between the US and USSR (Elint flight shootdowns, airspace incursions, etc.) that never led to war.

Perhaps the operative authorities decided that maybe the US professional intelligence committee might not be so enamored, or might not have it's own agenda separate from those elected officials the Israelis lobbied. You'd have to ask the Israeli officials actually responsible for the decision making process.

My guess is more that they didn't like the intrusion, and wanted to send a plausibly deniable message to that effect. The North Koreans did it, in a somewhat less subtle fashion, the following year, and got away with it, despite us having no love for them.

[Panag]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


The ship cost over 200 million. In 1966. Compensation was finally settled, and paid, during the Carter administration.

hi ,

, it was for the spouses and such , those amounts , .....

have a nice day

[Edan]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


No survivors might well mean the US decides to cut you off, and not worry how well y'all can swim.



So they just happened to be loaded with enough ordnance to make multiple passes, after that bombing run? What, one plane dropped one bomb in the desert? Nice cover.

The antennas and satelite dishes are to (a) prevent distress calls,

Except a distress call was made.. That was incompetent, wasn't it?

Since we didn't like y'all so much in '67 or prior, then I suppose those F-4's and A-4's you got were French or Brit made?

You mean the A-4's that were scheduled for arrival in December 1967 (and were matched with arm sales to Jordan?) - albeit via Germany, who succumbed to Arab pressure not to sell arms to Israel ? I couldn't find any mention of F-4's. I take your point that LBJ did offer to sell the planes before the war, but they were far from Israel's main supplier. Most of Israel's air force were French Mirages.

Or, we just had those lying around for another customer?

Umm, yeah. The rest of the Middle East?

"While American arm sales to the Middle East multiplied during the Johnson Administration, from $44.2 to $995.3 million, Israel's share was negligable. " Six Days of War p 16.

[Edan]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


How mother****ing negligent to be operating a ship in international waters with the US flag and US identifying markings on it.

When it was supposed to be a couple of hundred miles that-a-way because Johson didn't want to risk any involvement in the war?

And no, there was no malice, the continued strafing and small caliber shellfire when the ship was on fire

And firing back with it's machine guns....

But, well, malice against the Egyptians, sure.