Rage against the Machine - Communism Vs. Capitalism (again!)

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by ravagon


So when the Communist Government started shooting striking Polish workers you agree that it was the Government behaving irrationally then?
If so

Ditto for Beiging square when students were fired upon.

Violence against citizens is not exclusive to communist govts. I would have to say that those cases are extreme and probably not the best move although I'm sure the govts thought them to be rational moves.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
And thats where we disagree completely because that is one aspect of the nature of man IMO.

We can disagree, but it doesn't really matter. The govt will enforce the rules and the citizens will follow.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I don't understand what point your trying to make.

Of course govt set the rules. Doesn't mean that citizen don't break them, espcially when contrary to their nature. Or are you simply advocating anothe communist police state. I thought we were over that and talking about a true golden age of communism.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I don't understand what point your trying to make.

Of course govt set the rules. Doesn't mean that citizen don't break them, espcially when contrary to their nature. Or are you simply advocating anothe communist police state. I thought we were over that and talking about a true golden age of communism.

I wouldn't say police state, but more police and more enforcement than the current state.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Your treading a slippery path, Kid.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Violence against citizens is not exclusive to communist govts.

Very true, but if you're referring to "Western" Governments in particular, they tend to use tear/CS gas and rubber bullets - maybe inflicting a fatality or two in the most extreme cases. Those communist crackdowns were completely off the scale. Dozens/hundreds killed IIRC.

I would have to say that those cases are extreme and probably not the best move although I'm sure the govts thought them to be rational moves.

I'm not so sure that Communist Governments implementing such moves as 'rational' supports your theories quite frankly...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by ravagon
Very true, but if you're referring to "Western" Governments in particular, they tend to use tear/CS gas and rubber bullets - maybe inflicting a fatality or two in the most extreme cases. Those communist crackdowns were completely off the scale. Dozens/hundreds killed IIRC.
I'm not so sure that Communist Governments implementing such moves as 'rational' supports your theories quite frankly...

When a Western nation becomes communist we will see a difference.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Your treading a slippery path, Kid.

It is a slippery path, but my assumption is that capitalism will face a major crisis in the not so distant future that it will not be able to survive.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Maybe who knows. One thing I'm pretty confident of though is that even if communism becomes it successor, it will fail as well.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Maybe who knows. One thing I'm pretty confident of though is that even if communism becomes it successor, it will fail as well.

I'm not sure why you think that. Is it economical, political or what?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I clarified that for Og already. I don't claim to be able to eliminate psychopathical violence only violence resulting from the competition for resources.

This takes many forms, from kids fighting over toys to boys fighting each other for the attentions of a young woman, to siblings fighting for their parents attention to lawyers suing whoever they can to get a piece of the action, no matter how unrelated it may be to their case. Warfare over natural resources is small and tame in comparison.

[Velociryx]

More police than what? Than we have now in the US, or than some of your favorite run of the mill commie dictatorships have?

Should the national mantra be "one good turn-in deserves another?" Pit the citizens against each other, maybe? Have them so enthralled with the prospect of picking up a few more crumbs from the party bigwigs that it becomes a national passtime?

Again, I ask: What's wrong with just letting people be who they are? What are you so afraid of? Is reciept of whatever the party bosses determine to be your "fair share" of the nation's wealth worth your freedom of choice? Of speech? Of movement?

Are you truly so obsessed with equal economic outcomes (I think everybody would be happy with around 30k) that you're willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING else? Or, will you wake up one day and realize that you've sold your soul for a paltry 30k a year (or whatever your final figures turn out to be)?

What manner of victory is it to ensure some basic level of guaranteed wage if you must live each day wondering if a neighbor might say something to the local honcho and make your whole family disappear?

That's what you are advocating, because NOTHING in your plan as presented thus far varies markedly from uncle Joe Stalin's plan, save for the fact that you're calling for even more police (if I read your earlier post correctly).

You say that after all the enemies of the glorious revolution are crushed (ie - killed), there will be no need for war, but you base that assumption entirely on the fact that it's all (exclusively, entirely) about resources.

It's not, and you would be foolish to believe it.

Further, after all the external enemies of the state are eliminated, will you stand down the military? The police? Stop the random house-to-house checks to make sure that no one is amassing wealth that could be used one day, to exploit another?

Or will the state keep inventing new enemies (from within) to maintain its power over the sheep they rule over?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

When capitalism does collapse I think it will be quite obvious that communism is the only way forward.

[Velociryx]

When a Western nation becomes communist we will see a difference.

This is the heart and soul of the whole debate. Right here.

"Well, we don't really know if it'll work....we don't have any real plans to counter the disasters we've seen in history, but trust us....it'll be marvellous."

That's the plan, right? Just trust you and it'll all work out.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sikander
This takes many forms, from kids fighting over toys to boys fighting each other for the attentions of a young woman, to siblings fighting for their parents attention to lawyers suing whoever they can to get a piece of the action, no matter how unrelated it may be to their case. Warfare over natural resources is small and tame in comparison.

I'm not saying that two communist states will not fight a war over resources, even though I think it would probably be unlikely. I'm talking about the end of the nation-state.