Rage against the Machine - Communism Vs. Capitalism (again!)

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I can also agrue that the capitalist system is not capable of providing adequately for everyone. In fact, maybe you would like to show me when it has ever done so.

First I think no one here claimed capitalism was prefect, but its the best system we got that works to date. Most people under this system if they work hard enough can make it and not live in proverty for the rest of their lives. In fact very few people live in porverty in the US. Of course their are many reason for proverty, some are that they lack skills to find a better paying job, so they are stuck working minum wage jobs. Anther is that US many people are fleeing Mexico to come here to try to make a better life for themselves, some come legaly some come illegaly. When you can't speack any english, here illegaly and have very little education you end up having to take minum wage jobs.

Then their is homeless, but most of these people etheir have drug or other realated problems or metal problems which prevent them form being able to live a normal life, and thus end up on the streets.

This really has nothing to do with capitalism, since we do offer free education, and in many states if someone lives in proverty they can get a free education in the numerous community collages in the states. With the homeless this is more a mental health issue then anyone being oppressed, and would you say that someone who does simple task for about $6.00 an hour should be paid 30K a year for it simply because they are poor? Yes people should help them, but doing this would hurt more people them it would help. You know why? It would cause inflation, thus prices would go up and people buying power would go down and far more people would end up in proverty or close to it. The best thing is to teach them skills, which to many they can do it in the current system, since their are numerous programs for this in place.

On the other hand if you look at Soviet Union or anther other example of communism in the world, it has failed to provide a high standard of living to most of its people, expect of course for the party eliet and their friends.

[Kidlicious]

Suicide and Unemployment

Suicide and Unemployment


Unemployment was associated with a doubling of the suicide rate in data from the Office for National Statistics longitudinal study

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jack_www
In fact very few people live in porverty in the US. Of course their are many reason for proverty, some are that they lack skills to find a better paying job, so they are stuck working minum wage jobs.

22 million people live in poverty in the US, and that's an industrialized country. Did you think about the world poverty numbers?

Originally posted by Jack_www
Then their is homeless, but most of these people etheir have drug or other realated problems or metal problems which prevent them form being able to live a normal life, and thus end up on the streets.

Unemployment causes drug abuse and mental problems as well as many other problems including homelessness.

edit: make that 31 million people living in poverty in the US. There are 22 million families living in poverty.

Poverty

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Kidicious

22 million people live in poverty in the US, and that's an industrialized country. Did you think about the world poverty numbers?

Unemployment causes drug abuse and mental problems as well as many other problems including homelessness.

edit: make that 31 million people living in poverty in the US. There are 22 million families living in poverty.

Poverty

So that means 91 to 92% of US population dont live in proverty. That is pretty good numbers. As for people who unemployed or underemployed, the best way to deal with the problem is not to take drugs and try to escape the problem that way, but instead take it head on, and maybe that is why these people are unemployed in the first place. People have to take responsiblity for their actions, instead of trying to blame everyone but themselves. Yes we should help such people but these people most likely had these problems in the first place and whne they lost their jobs it just got worse. ALso their are treatments for all most all mental illiness if people just go and get that help before it is too late.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Jack_www


Then their is homeless, but most of these people etheir have drug or other realated problems or metal problems which prevent them form being able to live a normal life, and thus end up on the streets.

Here in NY, I'm seeing a lot of middle class people geting evicted from their apartments because of the economic downturn. People who lost their job two years ago and ate up all their savings.

Sure, the economy may turn around someday, but tell that to the family living in a damn shelter because they lost their tech jobs. And so what if the economy turns around but the tech sector doesn't for these people. What, should they be forced to work a McJob and live in section 8 housing because the skills they invested heavily in acheiving aren't of so much value? These are human beings damn it, who worked hard, studied hard,did everything the US said would bring success. The market told these people to invest in a comp sci education or an engineering education. Well, if the market doesn't need so many any more, then the winners should pay the losers for allowing the invisible hand to push the losers into career paths the winners later eliminated to maximize profits.

Tell that to the guy whose lived in section 8 housing his entire life and can't afford to both eat and get an education to improve himself. The guy who was born into poverty and doesn't have sufficient resources to pull himself out.

Until capitalism can ensure the people will be treated with dignity and that labor is not treated as an "investment in a skill" to be disposed of as the market changes, count me out.

This really has nothing to do with capitalism, since we do offer free education, and in many states if someone lives in proverty they can get a free education in the numerous community collages in the states.

Yeah, go get a job with a community college education and get back to me. Furthermore, most capitalists benefit from having an educated labor force. I don't see Bill Gates setting up shop in Guatemala. These ****ers need to pay their damn share.

With the homeless this is more a mental health issue then anyone being oppressed, and would you say that someone who does simple task for about $6.00 an hour should be paid 30K a year for it simply because they are poor?

Hmm, you pay some guy $6/hr and we have a problem. The guy won't be able to afford housing most likely. That means he'll need a section 8 voucher. Which means you and I get to pay for his housing in order to subsidize the company who can now pay a wage below living wage. Nice thinking Tex ...

You start talking living wage and I'll be happy to start listening about the benefits of capitalism.

On the other hand if you look at Soviet Union or anther other example of communism in the world, it has failed to provide a high standard of living to most of its people, expect of course for the party eliet and their friends.

Yeah, your average Russian would much prefer the old Soviet Union to the new Russia in terms of standard of living.

Look at Sweden, Finland, or even Belgium where the average standard of living is higher than in the US. All of our wealth and power and technology, and people generally live better in Scandanavia. Why should the average American even care about the benefits of the capitalist system when they never even get to see it - even after working two jobs with no vacation.

[Jack_www]

As for the rest of the World. Well the problem of proverty is not because of capitalism, it cause are different and Communist system of government would not solve these problems. Africa for example is torn by civil war almost all the time, so how can anyone make it in such an envirement? Most of the governments down their rather spend the little money they have on weapons then invest it in their cournty to make things better. Also they ignore problems such as ADIS, so no wonder they Live in proverty.

In South America and Mexico, most of these governments are corrupt and dont look after the interest of their people. Again this has nothing to do with capitalism.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jack_www
So that means 91 to 92% of US population dont live in proverty.

The glass is half full, huh? **** the rest of them, huh? 32 Million is way too high. It's 32 Million too high. I'm sorry that you write them off.

Actually your numbers are a little high.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jack_www
As for the rest of the World. Well the problem of proverty is not because of capitalism, it cause are different and Communist system of government would not solve these problems. Africa for example is torn by civil war almost all the time, so how can anyone make it in such an envirement? Most of the governments down their rather spend the little money they have on weapons then invest it in their cournty to make things better. Also they ignore problems such as ADIS, so no wonder they Live in proverty.

In South America and Mexico, most of these governments are corrupt and dont look after the interest of their people. Again this has nothing to do with capitalism.

World poverty is caused by capitalism. We can end the wars and feed all the people, but first we have to take the pigdogs out of power.

[Velociryx]

Incorrect, Jack.

The state should assume full control. Obviously we frail, exploited human beings are incapable of making our own decisions, being responsible for our own successes, or taking responsibility for our own shortcomings.

Because of this, the state should assume full control and tell us all what to think, and how to live.

THAT is the mantra Kid is spouting, and he apparently believes it with every fiber of his being.

We are, you see, totally inept and incapable of having a clue on our own, and so therefore, one must be provided for us by a benelovent state.

That this flies in the face of logic is immaterial. That there is no economic theory in support of the argument he is putting forth is irrelevent. He is utterly convinced of the inevitibility of his revolution.

What he's supporting is not communism. I'm not sure what it is, but it's not communism as Che described it.

-=Vel=-

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Jack_www


So that means 91 to 92% of US population dont live in proverty. That is pretty good numbers.

There are 300M people in the US according to the 2000 census. 22M Families in poverty is much more than 8-9%.

Lets be generous, lets say each of these poor families is a single parent with one child. That's 44M people in poverty (and that's not even counting impoverished single people). This represents approx. 15% of the population. My guess is treating 'family' as three people is more accurate, in which case 22% of the country is poor.

But I know, it's their fault for not studying hard, right. Same old blame the victim mentality.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by The Templar


Here in NY, I'm seeing a lot of middle class people geting evicted from their apartments because of the economic downturn. People who lost their job two years ago and ate up all their savings.

Sure, the economy may turn around someday, but tell that to the family living in a damn shelter because they lost their tech jobs. And so what if the economy turns around but the tech sector doesn't for these people. What, should they be forced to work a McJob and live in section 8 housing because the skills they invested heavily in acheiving aren't of so much value? These are human beings damn it, who worked hard, studied hard,did everything the US said would bring success. The market told these people to invest in a comp sci education or an engineering education. Well, if the market doesn't need so many any more, then the winners should pay the losers for allowing the invisible hand to push the losers into career paths the winners later eliminated to maximize profits.

Well I was talking first off about most homeless people. Most of these people etheir suffer from Mental illiness or Drug addiction. As for a family that lost their job and cant find anther one, well that is not the main cause of homelessness. Sometime the field that you work in does not have that much demand and you have to start looking for work somewhere else. I mean that is what I would do anyways. Also in the US anyways their is always welfare and unemployment benifts to fall back on. And I like I said lots of programs for job training.

Tell that to the guy whose lived in section 8 housing his entire life and can't afford to both eat and get an education to improve himself. The guy who was born into poverty and doesn't have sufficient resources to pull himself out.

Yeah, go get a job with a community college education and get back to me. Furthermore, most capitalists benefit from having an educated labor force. I don't see Bill Gates setting up shop in Guatemala. These ****ers need to pay their damn share.

You know I am going to a communitry collage right now and I have been able to get a job, of course that is just me. But communitry collages do offer a quality education and in the US last time I check K - 12 grade education was free and community collage is cheep or free if you live in proverty. Also you can transfer to a 4 year school from a communitry collage and their is finial aid avaible to people. So if you want you can get an education in the US. I think the problem more has to do with people not knowing what is out their then the lack of it.

Hmm, you pay some guy $6/hr and we have a problem. The guy won't be able to afford housing most likely. That means he'll need a section 8 voucher. Which means you and I get to pay for his housing in order to subsidize the company who can now pay a wage below living wage. Nice thinking Tex ...

If he is just cleaning a toilet or floors and has not skills how much would you pay him to do it? And that is way again in US their is welfare and other saftey nets. Also you have to think what effect it will have on the entire economy.

Yeah, your average Russian would much prefer the old Soviet Union to the new Russia in terms of standard of living.

Look at Sweden, Finland, or even Belgium where the average standard of living is higher than in the US. All of our wealth and power and technology, and people generally live better in Scandanavia. Why should the average American even care about the benefits of the capitalist system when they never even get to see it - even after working two jobs with no vacation.

The problems in Russia are a direct result of the communist system that rulled that country for 70 years and turn into what it is today. You cant expect things to get better overnight.

[Velociryx]

First, let me be quick to say that this post is not a personal attack AT ALL. Simply a collection of observations based on the debate put forth so far. Having said that, and having had this conversation for well over one thousand posts now, the nearest thing I can equate what Kid is putting forth to us is simple anger.

From what I can tell (and he'll be very quick to point out that I don't know him, so I could well be wrong....just basing this conclusion on what I have seen thus far) -- He is angry at the system, and angry in general. He speaks from a perspective of a desire for justice and equality for all, but does not really know how to begin....only that there are inequities in the system and people are living in poverty. This chaffes at him, and he cannot find a cause, but it's easy enough to place the blame on those who "have more" and so this is done.

Never mind that more can be done by working within the framework of the existing system (which he has already admitted is the case). Immaterial. He is convinced that the "pigdogs" (of which I am apparently a member, having been so labelled earlier in this conversation) are directly responsible (having cobbled together a unique ideology by borrowing bits and pieces from a variety of different sources--some basic (misunderstood) economic theory, Marxist dogma, and other odd bits pulled together in an attempt to form a cohesive whole, and IN that cohesive whole, mass murder or deportation of the "pigdogs" to a modern-day Gulag is perfectly acceptable when the revolution comes, as their wealth is transferred to those who have less (and, with their deaths, there will be fewer people to spread the wealth around to). They are, in his definition, criminals anyway, and so a death penalty is an appropriate punishment for their supposed crimes against humanity.

This is hardly the same rational, well-considered argument that Che put forth this morning, it is simply misdirected anger.

I understand anger, and certainly hold no grudge against anyone for BEING angry. 32 Million in poverty is 32 Million too many, and that is a perfectly reasonable....perfectly *rational* thing to be angry about.

The solution, however, does not reside with a bloody revolution, especially given the fact that more can be done (and more quickly/efficiently) by using the existing system....but then, that is harder.

It is much easier to simply BE angry and take delight at the imagined pleasures of vigilante-style justice when the revolution comes, rather than putting nose to grindstone and making a difference in the here and now.

Hard truths, or a misunderstanding of what I have seen here so far. I don't pretend to know....merely pointing out what it looks like from this (INDIVIDUAL) perspective.

-=Vel=-

[Jack_www]

Velociryx I think you got it right on. I mean I dont deny that their are problems in this world, but the answer is not in the deaths of those you think are too rich and taking their things by force and giving to others.

[alva]

He is angry at the system, and angry in general. He speaks from a perspective of a desire for justice and equality for all, but does not really know how to begin

It's called being young Vel, it called being young
(ah, those were the days )
-

32 Million in poverty is 32 Million too many

Is it realy that much..phew.. that is an awfull lot.

[alva]

but the answer is not in the deaths of those you think are too rich and taking their things by force and giving to others.

Certainly not, however I do think/feel some are just too rich to be hmm legal.
I'm not sure on how to counter that, a limit isn't gonna do any good as it will probable be backdoored before any such law is passed.
Still some action regarding this would be nice.