Rugby - Advantage Over!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Frozzy
Put simply, France are "All beef and no legs". I don't rate their back line.

Thanks Havak...

The least you expect from them the more they can surprise you. If the AB players are as overconfident as you are, NZ is on for a big disappointment... remember 1999.

Frozzy, IMO, England as a team is far better than the AB. Moreover, they are playing the game we call Rugby in the NH and not this L*****/Union pudding your teams are playing in the SH.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Well I did like the reference to Abbot and Costello – it’s a very effective Kiwi double act on my case here – keep it up guys.

Okay, you asked for it:

"I say, I say, I say. Havak has no nose"

"Havak has no nose, you say? How does he smell?"

"Shocking!"



Bob Hope rolls over in his embalming fluid.

Can I just point out that England actually drew the first test with South Africa – SA ending up nine wickets away from the win and with England also needing less than two hundred runs with those wickets to win it themselves.

I don't recall that the outcome of the match was being examined. What was being examined was the ex-skipper's plunge from crass over-confidence to falling on his sword within the space of five days.

It’s the good luck attitude that puzzles me.

The Waratah management at the time were too stupid to realise his potential, as they were too stupid to realise the potential of a number of good players who ended up at the Brumbies. Good luck to him for jamming it up them.

Clearly down there it’s just a matter of who offers you the shirt first. I’ll never understand it.

No, you obviously won't when you put it in those terms. No one would.

Witch hunting before the RWC is insanely self destructive let alone a ‘bit out of hand’?

Precisely.

The link you gave was very interesting, even allowing for the authors history with A. Jones. So the solution to all Aussie problems is to put A Jones in charge.

I particularly liked Spiros' translation of Eddie's shorthand rugby talk for A. Jones' benefit. Putting poisonous A. Jones in charge is poisonous A. Jones' and his poisonous camp followers' solution to just about everything. Thankfully, they're well and truly marginalised in this instance - in the sense that they're not going to get their grubby mitts on the job. What they are going to do, though, and they've obviously already started, is make life very difficult for those in the job.

You mean it was so razor sharp it must have come from the diamond cutters at the coalface?

For the first time in a very long time, words fail me.

In what sense Frozzy? I have seen him thoroughly embarassed at club level by very workman like opponents. Glaws have tried him at centre, fly half and (most laughably to all except Finbar) fullback and he just does not seem to ‘get’ the XV man game.

Do we have to keep bringing up this person's name? As a committed Gloucester supporter, I like awake at night wishing he'd been the Henri Paul who stacked Princess Fruit Loop and Dodo Dullard into the wall in the tunnel in Paris.

What I’ve been trying to hint at though is that you can’t be sure? That is what holds Carlos back and denies him the ‘best fly half in the world’ accolade. He can be electric. He can also be dire.

Sorry, I've seen a lot of him in the last 12 months. He has never been dire. He has had great games, he has had average games. But never dire. Several seasons ago he had dire games. The confidence level he's developed over the last 12 months seems to have ended that habit.

Ah Finbar – Carlos is a damn good player but would you really pick him above Larkham or Wilkinson right now?

As a matter of fact, I would pick him in front of Larkham at the moment, because Steve, sadly, is down on confidence and form. Yes, he's just back from injury, but he had a very average S12 season, too. Unfortunately, I think he's been smashed once too often.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin




Thanks Havak...

The least you expect from them the more they can surprise you. If the AB players are as overconfident as you are, NZ is on for a big disappointment... remember 1999.

Frozzy, IMO, England as a team is far better than the AB. Moreover, they are playing the game we call Rugby in the NH and not this L*****/Union pudding your teams are playing in the SH.

"Doctor?"

"Yes, Nurse?"

"The insolation patient is delirious again!"

[Havak]

I meant playing for England. My wording wasn't entirely clear.

No worries. I can understand his choice – he and his brother are very settled here. I still don’t think he should be eligible for us however.

He is a consistent player. He is not a consistent kicker. He can get any team rolling, but his kicking game is suffering.

Can I just clarify for yourself and Finbar it is mainly his kicking game I was referring to in terms of his performance – and I have seen him have very dire kicking games.

What I do dispute is the fact that Carlos was one of the best kickers in Super 12. It's a pressure thing.

I can’t dispute your greater experience of that code of the game. As Finbar has pointed out previously, though in different words to those I choose here, Continuity 12 is no preparation for test rugby in terms of pressure or the way it is refereed.

Barring any drunken South Africans beating the snot out of referees, or similar mishaps, New Zealand won't meet England until the final

I really can’t see us losing to them in the group stage to be honest. They are a team very much still rebuilding – a super effort against the Aussies but one very much now put in context I think?

Hopefully England will be able to bowl at nothing whilst Adam and Matty Hayden wet their whistles over a Foster's.

Oh we are nowhere near the Aussies in cricket – it doesn’t bother us that much (it bother ME but then I’m not the typical Englishman). The barmies find ways to entertain themselves by sledging the Aussie players (most effectively too at times).

Admit it. Our England bashing gives you something to focus your energy on.

It’s true. As the usually sole crusader for my country I have to work hard (where is MikeH when a little throwaway Kiwi baiting support is needed?)

Pre-tournament means nothing. Each side was chopping and changing their starting lines in conditions which would be more suitable in Scotland.

Interesting quote – so AB form now means nothing too then? We are starting from a blank slate then. Let me say then we can beat the ABs. We could beat the ABs if we played tomorrow. I’m not saying we would - but we sure as heck could. And we will still be capable of doing so in November – and that’s all that counts isn’t it – the ability to possibly do so? That gives us a game rather than an AB ego massage.

I'll admit the All Black pack was a bit slow to get on top of Aussies on Saturday, but the fact we can put 50 on Australia with a below-par performance says a lot.

I’m not disputing the ABs are a great side – when they subdue the opposing forwards and start to flow they are awesome. But I’ll take task with the below par part – that was a very good performance from the ABs with just a few defensive failings late on.

They’ll not play much better than that this year I suspect. Lets not get carried away.

If the AB players are as overconfident as you are, NZ is on for a big disappointment... remember 1999.

Where not only did you beat an AB side in very good form – you thoroughly deserved to do so taking them on and beating them at their own expansive game. It remains an all time classic and its such a shame the encore did not match up.

The players are Professionals Tamerlin – they know they messed up against us and they will be dead keen to correct that. Some of the fans are a little less grounded and that’s why I love the BBC website – they posed the question “who can stop the ABs now” and received an avalanche of “NO ONE” type replies. It’s the perfect setup for a repeat of 99 – my money goes on France should the two meet in RWC – real money as I could make a killing for small stake.

Frozzy, IMO, England as a team is far better than the AB. Moreover, they are playing the game we call Rugby in the NH and not this L*****/Union pudding your teams are playing in the SH.

Ah bless you Tamerlin. Very contrasting styles of course. For my part I will say I do not consider the ABs to be overall to be any better than us – not that I should even have to defend us in comparison – it’s not like they have beaten us recently now is it?

But I’m afraid I have coughed before that we are only where we are because we have homogenised styles – heck Finbar or the Kiwi lads can point of the areas where we used classic textbook SH infringements to overcome the ABs in June. We were cynical – but having learnt from the SH we actually call that ‘Professional’ just like they do.

Bob Hope rolls over in his embalming fluid.

And so he should after that.

What was being examined was the ex-skipper's plunge from crass over-confidence to falling on his sword within the space of five days.

Whats wrong with that? It’s rather English (and AB and Wallaby too).

No, you obviously won't when you put it in those terms. No one would.

Those terms are the terms of reference for me. There’s no other way to dress up the defecting lads happy to wear a Wallaby shirt in Sevens but suddenly wanting to wear black – or indeed a Bok U21 skipper who then decides he is a Wallaby. It’s completely beyond the understanding of this Englishman – who I will remind you is at the moderate end of English fan opinion. Most Glaws fans want the eligibility laws tightened considerably (mind you they do want English players to be born in the Forest of Dean only).

Of course I do remember the very hypocritical ARU crying foul when JJH used exactly the same eligibility wiggle. Have your cake AND eat it Mr O’Neil?

What they are going to do, though, and they've obviously already started, is make life very difficult for those in the job.

Eddie has never struck me as giving a rats ass what anyone else thinks? And the only opinion that really counts is O’Neils isn’t it. Ah – I see Eddie’s problem!

Do we have to keep bringing up this person's name?

It will not be mentioned again (today).

The confidence level he's developed over the last 12 months seems to have ended that habit.

In all round play – sure. With the boot, including tactical kicking – jury remains out m’lud.

Unfortunately, I think he's been smashed once too often.

It happens – but I’m not sure it s the case. That was a terrible game for your first post -injury start after all – against a rampant AB side smelling Wallaby blood. I think he’ll reach decent form for RWC if he avoids injury.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
Ah bless you Tamerlin. Very contrasting styles of course. For my part I will say I do not consider the ABs to be overall to be any better than us – not that I should even have to defend us in comparison – it’s not like they have beaten us recently now is it?

*Tamerlin is starting the NH dance*

AlLoNs cHilDrEn of tHe PaTRie,
Le DAy of GlOIrE iS aRriVé
RuLE BRiTanNia, MaSTerS DEs MeRs
QuE GoD sAVe LA qUeEN

But I’m afraid I have coughed before that we are only where we are because we have homogenised styles – heck Finbar or the Kiwi lads can point of the areas where we used classic textbook SH infringements to overcome the ABs in June. We were cynical – but having learnt from the SH we actually call that ‘Professional’ just like they do.

IMO the best way to beat the All Blacks is the very classical game England is playing since a few years.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

I can’t dispute your greater experience of that code of the game. As Finbar has pointed out previously, though in different words to those I choose here, Continuity 12 is no preparation for test rugby in terms of pressure or the way it is refereed.

Yes, the S12 focus on pure speed and flash play isn't helping the Test cause. Ours, anyway. Did I read somewhere that the Heineken Cup is going to introduce bonus points? I think that's one of the problems with S12. Sure, it creates a spectacle, but it only drives the competition further in that direction.

As the usually sole crusader for my country I have to work hard (where is MikeH when a little throwaway Kiwi baiting support is needed?)

When the going gets tough, obviously, MikeH gets going. I mean no offence, but you are a tighthead Winston Churchill.

But I’m afraid I have coughed before that we are only where we are because we have homogenised styles – heck Finbar or the Kiwi lads can point of the areas where we used classic textbook SH infringements to overcome the ABs in June. We were cynical – but having learnt from the SH we actually call that ‘Professional’ just like they do.

I don't see the problem with homogenised styles. It's precisely what has taken England to where they are - the best of, as it were, both hemispheres. Good luck to them. The French were at it long before England caught up - strong packs, creative backlines.

(mind you they do want English players to be born in the Forest of Dean only).

Thighs as thick as tree trunks and skulls to match.

Eddie has never struck me as giving a rats ass what anyone else thinks?

You're right. I was taking up your point about the unhelpfulness - to say the least - of the public bollocking.

It happens – but I’m not sure it s the case. That was a terrible game for your first post -injury start after all – against a rampant AB side smelling Wallaby blood. I think he’ll reach decent form for RWC if he avoids injury.

Obviously I hope so. But, as I said, he had a very ordinary S12 season by his standards, and I think it's wear and tear.

Edit. I notice in this morning's press that the ABs and the NZRFU have come to terms on the fiscal arrangements for the WRC. Quelle surprise. $NZ80,000 is the agreed bonus figure. On current conversion rates, that's about 75p or $OZ1.75. Obviously Frozzy became very very nervous and opened his wallet for the NZRFU.

[finbar]

Our media's analysis of the Wallabies' problems is reaching new heights of stupidity. This morning, a chart was published in which the speed of George Gregan's passing was compared to other half backs' speed. Apparently he's the quickest by .01 seconds.

What I did find interesting, though, was a replay late last night on FoxSports of a Wallabies -v- France Test from 1997. The differences between the Wallabies of 1997 and today's team were telling. Yes, I know six years is a very long time in rugby, but fundamental execution doesn't change that much.

Gregan was dictating. Passing, running and kicking. And the main reason was that he had a very strong, very mobile pack. He had Ewan McKenzie, Richard Harry and Mario Caputo in the front row, and John Eales and a very young David Giffen in the second row. The cleanouts were superb - instantaneous and brutal. The ball was available in a flash. Gregan wasn't taking any backward steps prior to passing. And the backline wasn't coming from 20 metres behind the advantage line. He also had a useful backline - Horan at 5/8, Pat Howard and Jason Little in the centres, a very young Joe Roff and Ben Tune on the wings, and an even younger Steve Larkham at fullback.

Havak - Pat Howard was inside centre and playing sensationally. His speed, stepping and sheer ability to create space was amazing. I'd forgotten how good he was. I suspect it was not long before he broke his leg. Gee, that really hurt his career.

Anyway, I wish Eddie would have a look at a tape of the match. He probably has. He probably wishes he had those forwards now.

[Frozzy]

How many posts can I get in before Ming locks this one

Originally posted by Tamerlin
The least you expect from them the more they can surprise you. If the AB players are as overconfident as you are, NZ is on for a big disappointment... remember 1999.

I actually expect England to be favourites in the final, and I won't be dissapointed if they lose the final. Suffice it to say *whisper*I think England may win

Frozzy, IMO, England as a team is far better than the AB. Moreover, they are playing the game we call Rugby in the NH and not this L*****/Union pudding your teams are playing in the SH.

The final will most likely be refereed by Andre Watson. Your favourite referee if I remember

[Frozzy]

Havak

I can’t dispute your greater experience of that code of the game. As Finbar has pointed out previously, though in different words to those I choose here, Continuity 12 is no preparation for test rugby in terms of pressure or the way it is refereed.

Ah, but often it is moments of individual brilliance that win and lose games.[/quote]

Finbar,

Edit. I notice in this morning's press that the ABs and the NZRFU have come to terms on the fiscal arrangements for the WRC. Quelle surprise. $NZ80,000 is the agreed bonus figure. On current conversion rates, that's about 75p or $OZ1.75. Obviously Frozzy became very very nervous and opened his wallet for the NZRFU.

My weeks wages too.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak
Nature versus nurture. Surely though it’s a separate argument from the one as to whether Fijians are eligible to be ABs in the first place though?

A very separate argument but the crucial factor here is thats its one I have a chance of winning.

Clearly down there it’s just a matter of who offers you the shirt first.

I agree with your point 100% but totally disagree with the premise that its applicable in this case. If he's been playing since under 16 (still in high school in principle) I find absolutely nothing wrong with his choosing to represent the same country in the international arena. The 7's you refer to isn't nearly the same game, even if it does fall under the same code. It isn't as regimented and doesn't come anywhere near the RWC in importance - By analogy I would compare it to a game against the "Presidents 11" before the start of the first test - How often do a few players take part in both?

Likewise, I wouldn't have much of a problem if English clubs (for example) took an active role in the development of rugby in the South Pacific. If they wished to recruit promising talent at a young age, finish their schooling and development, and a few years down the track put them into the English National team then more power to them. Obviously NZ teams have an advantage here, given the relatively close ties, geographically and otherwise, between NZ and many of those countries but you can't hold that against us.

Hmm. You play us in awful weather. Our forwards misfire and your young bucks put them under some pressure. Carlos has a pack slightly on and a backline totally on the front foot. He messes up his kicking. You are destroying the Boks – totally in charge – he messes up his kicking. You are humiliating the Wallabies – he messes up his kicking.

There is a pattern there – can you see it?

Hmmm ... As long as the weather's fine we're sure to win, as long as Carlo screws up the kicking?

I don’t know why you lads doubt our quality to be honest – it’s four years since the ABs beat us

Aaahh. Clarification: A doubter I am not. For the first time in a while England actually has put its money where its mouth is - and to pretty good effect IMO. My comments about a rematch were a reflection on the rather common (in recent years) AB trait of taking a while to warm up. Although I do happen to think we'd beat the same English team that defeated us twice earlier this year I'm under no illusion that it'd be a sure thing or anything other than a close game.

... four years since we beat you huh? I'm just going to pull this out of left field (apologies for using a baseball analogy) but it wouldn't happen, by the most remote coincidence imaginable, to be four years since they last played would it?

Originally posted by finbar
Edit. I notice in this morning's press that the ABs and the NZRFU have come to terms on the fiscal arrangements for the WRC. Quelle surprise. $NZ80,000 is the agreed bonus figure. On current conversion rates, that's about 75p or $OZ1.75. Obviously Frozzy became very very nervous and opened his wallet for the NZRFU.

I saw this. I must admit to being a little disappointed in the NZRPA at asking for a bigger winning bonus until I saw a note about the sums other countries were offering. AB's about 50k initially whereas England/Australia, etc, were between 200k and 400k. At that point any sympathy for the NZRFU died. Obviously there's a discrepancy between what we can pay as opposed to some other countries but it can't be that big.
I'm now coming to the conclusion that the NZRFU, not satisfied with losing joint-hosting rights, is trying to keep us out altogether.
At the moment its as if they're a bunch of dancing puppets. I wonder if I can trace the strings back to a place that might start with an L.

[Frozzy]

I saw this. I must admit to being a little disappointed in the NZRPA at asking for a bigger winning bonus until I saw a note about the sums other countries were offering. AB's about 50k initially whereas England/Australia, etc, were between 200k and 400k. At that point any sympathy for the NZRFU died. Obviously there's a discrepancy between what we can pay as opposed to some other countries but it can't be that big.

It's not so much a matter of 'is it enough' as a matter of world economic reality. For example, Paul Steinmetz, probably the sixth-ranked inside centre in NZ, has signed for Ulster for three times the amount of money of his Super 12 contract. So despite the fact that he is in one of the top Super 12 franchises, a not-very-renowned Irish province can still pay three times more than the Highlanders. That's the reality - in fact, playing for a Japanese company team still pays way more than a NZ Super 12 contract.

I'm now coming to the conclusion that the NZRFU, not satisfied with losing joint-hosting rights, is trying to keep us out altogether.

And this is the same reason why New Zealand will probably never get another chance to host the RWC - they won't make the IRB greedies enough money. And as for the England team - I think they should pay us money for having to watch their boring style of rugby and cynical ball-killing.

Tamerlin and Havak remind me of a couple of Tory old fogies. "This game is most certainly not my cup of tea" "Where on earth did you put the cheese and chutney sandwiches?"

[Ming]

Bad boys... over 500 posts. Time for Cal (the official thread starter) to start the next one.