sister wants a computer for making movies and...

[Asher]

Originally posted by elijah
Seriously! In windows, its sluggish, in Linux its blisteringly quick.

Call now! Order yours today! And if you call in the next 15 minutes, we'll throw in two free days of tech support! That's right, two days! Call now, don't delay!

Linux is the one (save for the 2.5 kernel) with the ridiculous kernel latencies.

And I do have a dualboot of Linux and Windows, and I can assure you Linux is not "blisteringly quick". In fact, XWindows is far less responsive than Windows is as an interface, and unless you do a bunch of third party hacks to the kernel, latencies are high which results in a performance pentalty in things like gaming, multitasking, and (you guessed it) computer graphics/movies. Not to mention how Linux is incredibly slow with launching and managing threads, and seeing as the new CPUs coming out rely on multiple threads for maximum performance...

My brothers mac (dont ask me for specs) gives comparable performance to my linux box, noticeably faster than the same box running windows, which I can only put down to better archetecture than i86.

i86 isn't even an architecture!
Do you have any clue what you're talking about? You sound like a drone...

The architecture is x86. And if PowerPC was truly a better architecture, how come it's a fraction of the speed?

XP Pro is the one that OS X is comparable to, in which case, XP is more expensive.

Don't play that game, man.
She's basically not computer literate, she has no need for XP Pro whatsoever. XP Home is designed for people like her, and lets her do what she wants.

OSS is far cheaper, and even on microsofts TCO thing, which is inherently flawed anyway, linux/BSD wins, except on that MS sponsored "study".

Again, you display fundamental misunderstanding.
OSS does not equate free. OSS free as in source, not as in beer.

And you're right, OSS tends to be much cheaper.

Linux correctly modprobed it, and I got surround sound

You cannot modprobe speakers. You can modprobe soundcards, which tell you the capabilities of the soundcard.

Did you purposefully ignore my post?

If you detect a 6-channel compatible soundcard, it is incredibly stupid to default this to 6-channel speaker setup. A very small minority of people with 6-channel compatible soundcards (almost all are 6-channel compatible these days, even the integrated ones) have 6-channel soundcards, so if the OS thinks it can output to 6 channels when only 2 exist, 4 channels never get heard.

That is a design flaw, not a feature.

Well, for all intents and purposes. It does all I want it to and more with no bull, no costs, relatively easy

Are you using the same Linux as the rest of us?

Have you ever tried getting a Radeon 9800 Pro to work in Linux? Ever tried configuring it to play 3D games? Ever tried to get an Audigy 2 working in Linux (I got it working now in ARTS and no other sound server, and ARTS frequently corrupts the sound...).

One look at the Linux directory structure, and it's obvious ease of use and "no bull" is the last thing on their mind.

It allows me superior control of my system, but in control and ownership, as well as code.

Give me a break, you would never look at the code. You don't even understand the architecture name. Further, by the time you did look at the code and figure it out and change what you wanted, days (or weeks) have passed...

Even when i got into linux few people were talking about it on the desktop, now a few months later its a serious contender

LOL. You thought no one was talking about Linux on the desktop a few months ago? They've been talking about it for years, man, and the Linux desktop share is still ridiculously small.

Linux is a mediocre server OS, whose best feature is its cost. BSD is much better for that, the difference is Linux got all the hype...

For free, I can get a fully fledged desktop system that configures most of my hardware automatically (monitor needed a little tweaking)

You must have old hardware.

Linux absolutely sucks ass with new hardware. You can't even get full hardware acceleration with a new ATI card. Most wireless cards don't work with it. To enable 3D acceleration you need to add kernel modules, you need to configure XWindows by hand, etc.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Not what happened. The court determined that MS had copied elements of the Macintosh interface but revoked Apple's patents on those elements.

That's exactly what I said!

The court determined that MS "copied elements of the Macintosh interface" (the window concept with encapsulated visual representation of data), but found that such a stupid, stupid thing to patent, and found that Xerox PARC did it first, and revoked Mac's patents.

You can spin it any way you want, but it certainly doesn't constitute MS "immitating" MacOS.

Believe me, I've spent enough time fixing various computer illiterate people's computers running Windows to know that they'd be better off with OS X.

Give me an example or two.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

That's exactly what I said!

The court determined that MS "copied elements of the Macintosh interface" (the window concept with encapsulated visual representation of data), but found that such a stupid, stupid thing to patent, and found that Xerox PARC did it first, and revoked Mac's patents.

There was more to it than that. Apple (well that idiot John Sculley) actually gave MS the rights to use some of the stuff.

Give me an example or two.

People who don't have anti-virus software (on a mac you don't really need it - I've got a free copy of NAV and haven't caught one yet). Then they get a virus and their computer goes bang. Agathon has to reinstall everything and scan all their files for viruses. (Friends of Agathon's parents).

People whose version of Windows 98 has just stopped working properly for no reason. For example, Internet Explorer is so pooched that you can't type in an address without getting a BSOD. (Agathon's parents).

People who think that an "illegal instruction" means the police are on their way - who then ring Agathon in a panic.

People whose computers come with endless preinstalled crap and icons everywhere which they don't want and are afraid to delete.

Registry trouble.

I don't know much about Windows but I spent quite some time fixing people's computers when I was back in NZ last year.

[Atahualpa]

I can NOT recommend a MAC.

But I will recommend a PowerMAC!

[Atahualpa]

@Agathon:

As long as you dont need any system specific stuff done on a MAC you are safe (of course thats 99.99% of the time). But when you have to, you are screwed.

Of course the advantages of a MAC are clear:
1. The looks



and thats all little sister care for, isnt it?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
There was more to it than that. Apple (well that idiot John Sculley) actually gave MS the rights to use some of the stuff.

What happened was a crosslicensing agreement to prevent additional frivilous legal costs. MS gave Apple access to technology and ideas, and vice versa. Same thing happened with Intel and AMD many years ago.

It makes sense to do so when it's clear at least one of the partners (in this case, Apple) is overly happy with litigation over stupid things.

People who don't have anti-virus software (on a mac you don't really need it - I've got a free copy of NAV and haven't caught one yet).

Virtually every PC ships with an anti-virus program...

People who think that an "illegal instruction" means the police are on their way - who then ring Agathon in a panic.

"illegal instruction"? Never seen that error before.

Registry trouble.

Like?

[Drake Tungsten]

My folks just bought a wireless router for the house and I had to help set up all the PC's for the network. It ended up taking hours and a couple of calls to tech support to figure out. What a freaking nightmare...

On the flip side, I got an AirPort card today and hooked my laptop up to the wireless network. Just installed the card and software and OS X located the network and configured everything for me. Took about 15 minutes from start to finish. Nothing like owning a Mac for keeping your stress level down.

[Asher]

What didn't work with their wireless network, and what OSes did they use?

[Drake Tungsten]

The wireless cards weren't receiving the channel that the router was broadcasting on (even though we set the router channel to the recommended channel). The tech support people had us change the router broadcast channel three or four times until we found the right channel. I wish Windows would automatically take care of that stuff like OS X does; would've saved me a lot of grief.

As for OSes, two were running XP Home and one was running 98. The 98 comp was even worse than the XP ones, even though we just installed an ethernet card and physically hooked it up to the router.

[Asher]

Hmm. I'm not sure OS X automatically changes channels -- my friend has to tweak his Airport channel all the time at school to get better reception.

[Whaleboy]

save for the 2.5 kernel

You said it! 2.4.x is basically 2000 technology. I always run dev kernels as soon as I get the chance. AND ITS STILL MORE STABLE THAN WINDOWS!

In fact, XWindows is far less responsive than Windows is as an interface, and unless you do a bunch of third party hacks to the kernel

Which desktop? KDE sucks ar$e, dont bother with that, you want Gnome!!! Now THATS my baby!

What kernel hacks by the way? I'd be interested to squeeze out some extra juice, if you wanna PM me, I'd appreciate it!

i86 isn't even an architecture!

It was either i86 or x86, I forget, but either way, that means the 8086, the 286,386,486,586,686 classes of processor.

You cannot modprobe speakers.

No, but you can modprobe soundcards! Unfortunately theres no kernel module for automatically plugging in speakers... but when there is! No more experiences with the dark evil place that is the area behind my desk!

If you detect a 6-channel compatible soundcard, it is incredibly stupid to default this to 6-channel speaker setup

Didn't realise that, in which case, Kudzu is stupid! In all fairness, I now run Slackware, where I had to modprobe everything manually, but thats not a distro designed to compete with windows, its for those of us who dont need a mouse to use a computer... although it obviously provides... ill stop now... or not..

Have you ever tried getting a Radeon 9800 Pro to work in Linux?

No, hence my sanity. I dont deny that there are more hardware problems and setting up some hardware is harder in linux than windows, but is it possible (of course... what isnt?), is it feasible soon? (yes), and is the situation improving on a daily basis? (yes).

Give me a break, you would never look at the code

At the risk of another accusation of "bull****", I look at the code, I read it, even found a few bugs and sent off a few reports (that was mozilla 1.3 beta a while back). I look at the kernel code to see how stuff is done, and while im not the worlds greatest coder I'm capable of spotting flaws. I know lots of linux people that do, it gives a completely different dimension of control over my system than closed source systems offer. Besides, even if one doesnt look, it is the choice and option of doing so that is most empowering, as one is assured that a number of people around the world who are very capable coders, and not working for one corporation, with its own interests, are reading the code, making changes and submitting them, and its worked pretty well thus far!

I trust linux and bsd not to contain spyware. I dont trust microsoft or any other closed source company to do the same.

Further, by the time you did look at the code and figure it out and change what you wanted, days (or weeks) have passed

Says you. You dont know me, dont make assumptions about the way I operate.

You thought no one was talking about Linux on the desktop a few months ago? They've been talking about it for years, man, and the Linux desktop share is still ridiculously small

Hardly in a serious capacity, and I'm saying that looking at the amount of articles and posts on the subject at sites like linux.com etc etc. In the past few months its become a serious contender, up to the size of apple mac, even MS admits to that. Mac OS is a good desktop system, if it were not for compatibility (the main barrier to linux in the future but then, such things tend to be broken down by forks and clones), it would probably have destroyed the MS monopoly on OS's!. Linux would not have got into the position it is in now if it wasnt doing something right. I dont even remember a single specific linux advert, only the IBM one with the basketball game, but that was only relatively recent (2/3 months?).

Linux is a mediocre server OS

In terms of performance and compared to BSD, its not mediocre, but its not as fast as 4.4BSD, though this will probably change with the release of 2.6.x. On smaller servers, linux distros like slackware are easier to admin than BSD, quicker to set up, and yet give most of the advantages of unix over windows, so on balance I would say that linux is the best os for small servers, whereas the BSD's are better for larger servers, or indeed people who *really* know what theyre doing.

Having said that, FreeBSD makes a mean desktop when you put some effort into it (more than slackware imo).

You must have old hardware

6/7 months or thereabouts. Got my current box for xmas . Agreed, linux is problematic at best with hardware released after the kernel of a given OS, but then, installing a driver fixes that, just as is the case with windows, it just so happens that driver availability (something that is improving) sucks at the moment, and there is a lag of a few weeks. Having said that, few people buy a new piece of kit within seconds of its release, a graphics card will never become harry potter V.

Though some newer machines can cut it fine (I had to wait about 3 weeks for full hardware support with my current system), generally speaking, most people runnign linux are running older boxes that used windows and got pissed off with it, and wanted something better. They might not have been able to afford the new PC that XP would only run on, so they ran linux. They might have found that XP sucks and ran linux (my story, and increasingly so with the civil liberties minded), you get the idea .

To enable 3D acceleration you need to add kernel modules, you need to configure XWindows by hand, etc

IIRC, Mandrake, Red Hat, SuSE, Knoppix, Lindows etc etc, all do agpgart and the 3d stuff (GLX etc) automatically, and yes in Slackware and older distros one has to do it by hand. I run slackware, I can, thus I do. Boo Hoo!

People who think that an "illegal instruction" means the police are on their way - who then ring Agathon in a panic

With all this DRM and spyware crap now, I wouldnt be suprised if that actually happened soon! And as for the NSA backdoors!!!

Virtually every PC ships with an anti-virus program

Mine didnt .

[Asher]

Originally posted by elijah
You said it! 2.4.x is basically 2000 technology. I always run dev kernels as soon as I get the chance. AND ITS STILL MORE STABLE THAN WINDOWS!

2.4 is the stable kernel, 2.5 is beta.
And no, I would disagree that it's more stable than Windows, since Windows from 1999 (Windows 2000) doesn't crash at all for me. And when my Linux box dies when I run Quake III with hardware acceleration, and the sounds become corrupting requiring a rebot, etc. -- I don't consider it that stable really.

Which desktop? KDE sucks ar$e, dont bother with that, you want Gnome!!! Now THATS my baby!

I prefer Gnome, but it, too, is such a piece of crap that I can't properly set my mouse sensitivity. It's just way too slow, and the only way to turn it up any farther is to screw with acceleration, and then it just behaves whacked.

Not that it matters, the latency and responsiveness problems is a combination of poor kernel design, having the window manager talk to XWindows which talks to the OS, whereas in Windows the window manager is the OS and runs as a kernel extension.

What kernel hacks by the way? I'd be interested to squeeze out some extra juice, if you wanna PM me, I'd appreciate it!

I don't have their names, there's a few out there for far better kernel latency issues, and more for competent thread handling.

It was either i86 or x86, I forget

If you could forget something as basic as that, particularly as a supposed Linux user where 90% of the software you download has "x86" tagged on it, it really puts your credibility in doubt. It's like talking with someone about cars, and they forget what the steering wheel is called.

No, but you can modprobe soundcards!

Hello! We've already been through this, twice.
Windows does detect the soundcards better (I can't believe you're even attempting to argue Linux has better hardware recognition, even Linux zealots avoid that territory). You cannot modprobe/detect speakers because speakers don't send information back to the computer, period. So autodetecting a 6 channel soundcard (which is 99% of today's soundcards) and defaulting this to 6 channel speakers is a stupid, stupid idea.

At the risk of another accusation of "bull****", I look at the code, I read it, even found a few bugs and sent off a few reports (that was mozilla 1.3 beta a while back).

"Bull****".
How did your send your changes to the code, and which bugs did you fix (you do realize Bugzilla is kind enough to keep track of who patched what )

and while im not the worlds greatest coder I'm capable of spotting flaws.

In a kernel?
Give me an example or two of bugs you fixed in the kernel.

I trust linux and bsd not to contain spyware. I dont trust microsoft or any other closed source company to do the same.

Well, it's your own perogative to naively trust opensource to be secure and spyware free.

Did you know MandrakeSoft collects databases of information for your exact configuration plus hardware stats if you use MandrakeUpdate? Don't believe me? Packetsniff that data.

Did you know that the equivalent function in Windows, Windows Update, doesn't collect any of the data aside from your OS version? It works by sending your computer a catalogue of the updates available, then your computer decides what it has and doesn't have.

So in this case, it's certainly the open source software that has the spyware over closed source.

Says you. You dont know me, dont make assumptions about the way I operate.

Oh, I'm sorry.
I didn't realize you were better than 99.9% of the programmers in the world, while at the same time forgetting what the instruction set is called on PCs.

In terms of performance and compared to BSD, its not mediocre, but its not as fast as 4.4BSD

Which 4.4BSD?

BSD is faster and more secure. Linux is slower and less secure, but it's got the GNU license which open source pundits orgasm over, while BSD has the BSD license which is less "communist" in nature. The reason Linux is so popular is because of hype and GNU, and nothing more. It's hardly a stellar OS.

Look at Netcraft's record uptime statistics, every single one of the top 100 are BSD systems.

IIRC, Mandrake, Red Hat, SuSE, Knoppix, Lindows etc etc, all do agpgart and the 3d stuff (GLX etc) automatically, and yes in Slackware and older distros one has to do it by hand. I run slackware, I can, thus I do. Boo Hoo!

Bzzzzzzzzzt.
Nvidia's drivers are binary only, and do not get configured properly for 3D on any of those systems due to legal reasons.

I've installed Mandrake 9.0 myself, which is usually the best for autoconfig/install, and it still does 2D only, directing you to nvidia.com for instructions on how to enable 3d.

And FYI, Linux still can't support AGP 8x even.

Mine didnt .

Which vendor did you use?

[Agathon]

Our lab just got a new Dell (in tasteless black with a really cheap looking Logitech mouse and the worst keyboard imaginable) with XP Professional installed.

Well since Asher raves on how great it is I thought I'd sit down and give it a go, having previously only tinkered with it and never having had a decent session.

Well I've been here for an hour and my verdict is that it is complete ****.

I finally turned on ClearType and it doesn't work properly. The text is still jagged and frankly it's not much better than when it was turned off.

I can't seem to find pop-up blocking in IE which means I'm being bombarded with terrible ads that I don't want to see. It also does strange things when I visit the OT Forum page.

Half the icons are quite nice, although a little clunky, but the other half look like they are from 10 years ago.

The Help Centre is even worse than OS X's (if that can be believed).

The default theme is like some nightmarish cartoon which is intensely distracting.

And word doesn't work and imagines that it is installing something when you try to open it.

It is quick though (although the 2 point something Ghz processor is largely responsible. But that's about all it has going for it.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
in tasteless black with a really cheap looking Logitech mouse and the worst keyboard imaginable

Surely it's still better than the iMac's cheap keyboard and the hockey-puck mouse?

Well I've been here for an hour and my verdict is that it is complete ****.

Right.

I finally turned on ClearType and it doesn't work properly. The text is still jagged and frankly it's not much better than when it was turned off.

1) Did you calibrate it?
2) Bull**** -- take a screenshot (hit Print Screen on the keyboard, paste it into MS Paint, upload it here)

I can't seem to find pop-up blocking in IE which means I'm being bombarded with terrible ads that I don't want to see.

IE doesn't come with popup blockers (duh). If you want those, there's hundreds of freeware programs that are painless to use. Ever heard of Google?

It also does strange things when I visit the OT Forum page.

Like?

The default theme is like some nightmarish cartoon which is intensely distracting.

You find XP's distracting? I think that's poor word choice, OS X is the one filled with excessive blending and animation. XP's default theme is annoying condescending and tacky.

Switch to Silver or Windows Classic, or theme your own with the hundreds of free ones online.

And word doesn't work and imagines that it is installing something when you try to open it.

The first time you open an MS Office application, it does some configuration with the installer.

What doesn't work about it? Don't tell me you're not bright enough to figure out how to use MS Word...

[FrustratedPoet]

Don't tell me you're not bright enough to figure out how to use MS Word...

Well, he IS a Mac user...