Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
the official newspaper of the Communist Party is owned by people like Dassault and Lagardère who are archetypal capitalists (they did that for the sake of diversity of opinions).

Actually, a guy from l'Humanité (the communist newspaper) once told me that, in Italy, the right-wing newspapers experienced a significant loss of readership once the communist newspaper closed down. Dassault, who holds 30% of the right-wing newspaper Le Figaro wanted to avoid such a fate for its publication. (he also possesses 30% of arguably right-wing l'Express )

[Serb]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
One of the most fun times I've had with toys was touring Soviet navy ships in San Diego. An Udaloy and a Sovremenny, pride of the Soviet navy, newest ship classes, and 20-25 years behind US technology.

1) It's Bullsh!t.
2) Ticonderoga is 25 years ahead of Sovremenny? Yeah, right, and I have a bridge to sell.
3) Russian ships of Kirov class is 20-25 years ahead of any American ship.
4) Have a nice day.

[Velociryx]

This is where Templar's logic breaks down for me:

1) There are no functioning examples of communism out there, innovating rapidly, and improving the lives of the people under their thumb.

2) There are some (a good many, actually) functioning examples of capitalism out there, innovating rapidly and improving the lives of the people living in that system.

Therefore....

Communism MUST be better!



-=Vel=-

[JohnT]

"Home Despot"

Band name!

[Serb]

Therefore....

Communism MUST be better!

Exactly.

Capitalism sucks.
Communism forever.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Serb
Capitalism sucks.
Communism forever.

You amuse me, BAM!.

[Serb]

You're welcome.
What the heck is BAM means? Baikalo-Amurskaya Magistral? (Baikal-Amur Railroad?)

[JohnT]

Bald Assertion Man. It is to make an assertive claim without bothering to explain why it is so. Especially so when the claim is as ridiculous as the one you just made.

[Velociryx]

Yep...see you in the bread line, Serb! (and it should be interesting when MtG sees your earlier post!)

More to Templar:

Electiricy\Electric Lighting
Doesn't matter who proliferated it, or even if Edison might not have been a whiz in the business world....we're talking about innovation, pure and simple. Did the electric light come from the borg collective group-think, or from a place that celebrated the individual and promised rewards for his inventions? Specifically, it is innovation from an open *culture*, rewarded by (or with the promise of rewards by the capitalist system).

Mass Produced Automobile (or, if you prefer, mass production in general) - Capitalist, as you say.

Flight
Again, it does not matter that the Wright brothers weren't whizzes in business in terms of discussing innovation, only that the innovation occured in: a) An open culture that celebrated the individual and b) promised rewards to be handed out by the capitalist system

Jazz
Another case of innovation occuring in an open society, with the promise of rewards given out by the capitalist system.

Rock-N-Roll
Sufficient contributions from socialist European countries (especially at the time) to neutralize this. Besides, communist and socialist visions inspired many of these songs. - True 'nuff. Did they invent, or follow along after the fact? Where was the genesis of Rock-N-Roll?

Personal Computers
Really? Interesting, 'cos I remember reading about the closing chapters of the cold war from my computer. They existed in number well before the cold war was over, and again, what sort of society spawned it? The closed, group-think, authoritarian, communist kind, or the more open, individualistic, capitalistic kind?

The Internet
Yep....a government/university/military project that is another fine example of the culture in which it was born. Note too, the explosive growth OF the internet. What drove it's growth?

Wireless Communication
Per capita....maybe. In terms of raw usage, not even close. What countries drive that market and crank out innovations in it? Are they communist nations?

Wide-Scale use of Satellites
another government project.
No denying that. Just like there's no denying that most (if not all) capitalist societies have some form of "social safety net" in place to help provide for those at the bottom rung of the economic ladder. Again, what culture spawned it? The individualistic, capitalistic culture, or the centralized communist one?

The Genome Project
see above.

Space Flight (since you separated it out). Yep...the one place where communism beat capitalism. And since then:
First interplanetary probe
First man on the moon
First semi-permanant space station (skylab)
First orbiting telescope
etc, etc, etc

Is there a trend here? One side of the fence has a long track record of innovation (profitable or not, government funded or not), and the other....doesn't.

I would say this shoots a rather largish hole into the notion that capitalism is forever attempting to knock down the twin pillars mentioned earlier.

-=Vel=-

PS to Kid: I'm hurt... No comments to my recent stuff....



-V.

[JohnT]

Hell, he still hasn't explained to me how he reconciles the dichotomy of his decision to change from being a "socially useful" teacher to being a "social leech" (Accountant) with his beliefs. Does it keep him up at night?

He claimed that it was because teaching was bad for him... but Kid, what does that matter? According to you, societal needs must come at the expense of your individuality, but you made an individual choice that is very arguably not beneficial to society, and in fact, perpetuates that which you claim to loathe.

It's all in how they act, Vel. They can write and write all they want to, but as long as they are looking for those Citibank contracts and Accounting positions, we win by default.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Yep...see you in the bread line, Serb! (and it should be interesting when MtG sees your earlier post!)

JhonT, thanks for the explanation.
And I think he already saw it.

Oh..almost forget...see you in the same line.

Best regards.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by JohnT
but Kid, WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN???

Would someone please think about the children?

[JohnT]

X-Post with my X-Edit.

[DinoDoc]

You DanSed me!

[Velociryx]

JohnT

Well said!



-=Vel=-