United Nations Leaves Its People To Die In Congo

[Az]

With who's plane? Who pays? What about airspace rights? Do rescuers go armed? UNder what rules of engagement?

No such problems here. and if no rules of engagment were laid out before the UN mission, than the whole affair is somewhat... disheartening.

Sorry Azazel, but I am sick of mindless anti UN trolling (and mindless trolling in general).

Learn to enjoy it. It's the spice of life.

This thread went beyond criticism of ther UN, as all ant-UN threads go,, since the point is not to point out mistakes, but to make a point (get rid of the UN..see how bad it is).

Look, it's rather simple, actually. UN is not doing it's declared job. therefor, why have it at all? and if it has no will of it's own, again, why have it at all?

Of course, I for a long time have said the the UN is nothing more than a pawn of superpowers. Has it's overall presence been good or bad? I don't know, but I am inclined to the 'good' side.

Is it the paragon of virtue, justice, and generally "the-way-it-should-be"? The answer is no, definetly.

[Panag]

hi ,

when are people going to realize that the U do Nothing stands for U know Nothing , ......

with all the tools , equipment and money an other drama cant be stopped , ......

then why the heck are nations paying the UN , ......

what do they do , run up expense accounts and have nice diners , .....

have a nice day

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
The UN forces had the ability to extract the two observers.

Col. "I don't feel guilty" chose not to, without any valid reason.

The only breakdown in command and control was that there was apparently nobody around to override the cowardice of that little chickenchoker.

Oh, and I assume you're saying the UN is actually doing something about the killings there?

There was a "reason" MtG :

And under U.N. rules, the ruling Lendu militia had to give permission to land a helicopter in Mongbwalu. It also was unclear which Lendu militia was in charge of the town, he said.


So his soldiers had to wait for clearance from the Lendu chief, and only MONUC headquarters in Kinshasa, the capital, could authorize a rescue operation.


"These are the rules of the United Nations," said Vollot.


I don't get why you'd have to get clearance from Hostiles. Maybe I'm just stupid.

This "I don't feel guilty" guy sure is an *******. The loss of 2 people, who have mentioned they were in danger and unable to defend themselves for FIVE DAYS in absolutely unforgivable.
This colonel should go clean the ground of some French barracks in Polynesia

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs


Really? REALLY?

Assh*le.

He should be shot > !

GOD DAMNIT I AM PISSED OFF AFTER READING THIS!! Cant type how angry I am

[Spiffor]

However, we don't send only powerless people there, gladly

From Libération, 14 June 2003

A Bunia, les soldats français rispostent à des tirs
14 juin 13:58:31
Des soldats français mandatés par l'Onu pour mettre fin à des affrontements interethniques en République démocratique du Congo tiennent leurs positions près de Bunia.
© REUTERS

par Dino Mahtani

BUNIA, Congo démocratique (Reuters) - Des soldats français déployés à Bunia pour mettre fin aux affrontements interethniques qui ensanglantent cette ville du nord-est de l'ex-Zaïre ont, selon des témoins, ouvert le feu pour la première fois samedi après avoir été attaqués en périphérie.

Dissimulés par la végétation, des assaillants avaient pris pour cible, au mortier et à la mitrailleuse, un convoi des forces françaises qui circulait hors des faubourgs sud-est de la ville, théâtre depuis un mois de combats qui ont fait des centaines de morts et des milliers de déplacés en République démocratique du Congo.

On ignore si cet échange de tirs a fait des victimes.

"Les Français sont attaqués, personne ne sait par qui", a déclaré un officier français à un journaliste de Reuters qui se déplaçait en convoi à la lisière de la ville.

"Nous avons été pris sous le feu intense de mitrailleuses et de mortiers."

"Nous avons riposté à la mitrailleuse et avec des grenades", a-t-il poursuivi, précisant que l'attaque s'était produite dans une zone située à trois kilomètres du centre-ville.

Le journaliste de Reuters a fait état de 10 tirs de mortier au moins avant que des avions de chasse français ne survolent la zone. Le convoi, à bord duquel se trouvaient 70 hommes environ, était formé de 15 véhicules tout-terrain et d'un blindé.

Vendredi, les forces françaises, fer de lance d'une force européenne mandatée par l'Onu avaient déployé hommes et véhicules dans les rues de Bunia pour y protéger les civils.

Les combats entre miliciens des tribus Hema et Lendu sèment le chaos depuis le début du mois de mai à Bunia et dans ses environs. Des centaines d'habitants ont été massacrés et des dizaines de milliers d'autres ont déserté leurs foyers.

L'UPC LOUE LA RIPOSTE FRANCAISE

La milice Hema, qui contrôle la ville, a attribué les tirs du jour à ses rivaux Lendu.

"Nous félicitons la force internationale pour la rapide riposte d'aujourd'hui; ces agresseurs attendent toujours l'occasion de reprendre la ville", a déclaré Saba Rafiki, responsable de la sécurité au sein de l'Union patriotique congolaise (UPC), milice Hema soutenue par le Rwanda, qui s'est emparée de Bunia le 12 mai.

"Mais les Français sont venus à notre secours et nous continuons quant à nous à poursuivre les agresseurs", a-t-il ajouté.

Aucun représentant de la milice Lendu n'a pu être contacté.

Quelque 400 soldats français sont arrivés durant la semaine à Bunia. Ils forment l'avant-garde d'un contingent international qui doit totaliser 1.400 hommes et pourra faire usage de la force en cas de nécessité. Ces militaires ont cependant pour seule mission de protéger la ville, son aérodrome et deux camps de réfugiés installés à proximité.

Si Paris fournit l'essentiel de ce contingent - première force européenne engagée hors du continent -, la Grande-Bretagne doit également dépêcher une centaine d'hommes et le gouvernement allemand a approuvé vendredi l'envoi de 350 militaires qui seront basés en Ouganda voisin.

Le Canada et l'Afrique du Sud devraient également contribuer à cette mission, que l'UE a baptisé "Artémis" et dont les effectifs seront au complet à la mi-juillet.

Une mission de l'Onu était déjà déployée en RDC, mais elle n'est pas habilitée à s'opposer à des combats. La force sous commandement français ne doit rester sur place que jusqu'au 1er septembre.

I don't feel like translating it all, but it says that a French convoy has been ambushed today 3 km away from Bunia's city centre. The attackers had mortars and machineguns, and the French opposed with grenades and machineguns. 10 mortar shots have been fired, according to local journalists.

The French have sent the biggest amount of soldiers in this EU operation (the first of its kind, being outside of EU borders) under UN mandate, with 400 men. The Germans are to send 350, and the British about 100. Canada and South Africa should take part in. The role of this EU mission is however only to protect Bunia + its airfield + 2 refugee camps.

The regular UN mission, already present for some time, cannot oppose the fightings in the area.

The Hema militia in control of Bunia has saluted the French reaction to the ambush, and says that the French are on their side. They also say their Lendu rivals are the culprits of the attack. No Lendu official could have been joined.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Spiffor


There was a "reason" MtG :

And under U.N. rules, the ruling Lendu militia had to give permission to land a helicopter in Mongbwalu. It also was unclear which Lendu militia was in charge of the town, he said.


So his soldiers had to wait for clearance from the Lendu chief, and only MONUC headquarters in Kinshasa, the capital, could authorize a rescue operation.


"These are the rules of the United Nations," said Vollot.

An officer with balls would simply go get them out, then tell his "superiors" that if they wanted to relieve him of command, that was their choice.

I don't get why you'd have to get clearance from Hostiles. Maybe I'm just stupid.

No, you're just not a UN bureaucrat afraid to offend anyone. Besides, when did these Lendu *******s become internationally recognized "rulers" of anything.

This "I don't feel guilty" guy sure is an *******. The loss of 2 people, who have mentioned they were in danger and unable to defend themselves for FIVE DAYS in absolutely unforgivable.
This colonel should go clean the ground of some French barracks in Polynesia

With his tongue, and latrines, not barracks, although Polynesia doesn't sound like hardship duty. Got any permanent bases in Africa? After he's done with spit-polishing latrines, bring him back for UN duty as an unarmed Milobs and hang him out to dry with the same ****ing "rules" he was so fond of hiding behind.

[Sirotnikov]

God damn.

And you want these c*ck suckers to be put to oversee the security of the Israeli Palestinian borders???

...

At least they will be easy enough to kill once hell breaks loose.


God damn sh*t-head UN mother-f***ers.

[Sirotnikov]

You know, while I'm generally favourable of the DP only for mass murderors and intentional murderors, and I think this is something along the lines of Killing, but since it was done by such a high ranking colonel, he really should pay a heavy price as an example. The same that the two people depending on him for their life did.

[MichaeltheGreat]

The problem is the yellow SOB realizes he's exempt, for hiding behind his "legal" orders. Thats' why I said I hope somebody in his command doesn't "feel guilty" about fragging him. That's the only kind of justice he's likely to receive.

In the normal national military bureaucracy, about the only thing you can do with *******s like that is make sure they never get promoted, and put them in the worst postings you can, but in this case, it's not near enough.

[Sirotnikov]

I think that once in such a position, him following orders becomes what in IDF is called, following a clearly illegal order. It is prosecuted by law.

It would be one thing if he were ordered to leave them there.

But his obvious and intentional inaction in the light of their apparent faith, and that coupled with no possible logical or strategical reason to avoid their rescue - is surely a criminal action.

[Dr Strangelove]

Wasn't their something in the article about the UN having to obtain the permission of local tribal leaders in order to move anyone within the tribal area? Perhaps the problem is that UN forces are woefully out-numbered for their mission, and that aggravating local tribal leaders would only invite a much larger massacre. Maybe the problem is that mission to Africa tend to be under-supported. You give these people nothing to work with, then you criticize them for accomplishing nothing! Perhaps if the peacekeeping mission to Congo was supported with even one-quarter of the efforrt devoted to either of the last two Gulf wars the whole conflict would be rapidly quashed and some serious relief to the monumental suffering of the Congolese could begin. But let's face it, that's not going to happen because the people doing the suffering are, well, you know......................... Oh, come now, you no what I'm talking about............................................. ....Come on, let's just say it..............................................Th ey're..................................... francophones

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I think that once in such a position, him following orders becomes what in IDF is called, following a clearly illegal order. It is prosecuted by law.

It would be one thing if he were ordered to leave them there.

But his obvious and intentional inaction in the light of their apparent faith, and that coupled with no possible logical or strategical reason to avoid their rescue - is surely a criminal action.

"Illegal" orders are generally positive orders to do something that is a violation of the laws and customs of war, or some express obligation under international law.

If he had standing orders from his lawfully appointed superiors (he did), then all he can/has to do is ask those superiors to get the ball rolling. If they **** around with it until it's too late, he skates, and so does the UN mission "we had to have those *******s' permission"

That's a structural problem with the UN peacekeeping setup, which is why I prefer the Mad Mike Hoare sort of solution, but then getting "invited" to give that kind of performance is a bit tougher.

[TheGuitarist]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
The problem is the yellow SOB realizes he's exempt, for hiding behind his "legal" orders. Thats' why I said I hope somebody in his command doesn't "feel guilty" about fragging him. That's the only kind of justice he's likely to receive.

In the normal national military bureaucracy, about the only thing you can do with *******s like that is make sure they never get promoted, and put them in the worst postings you can, but in this case, it's not near enough.

Well put.

[Seeker]

My Goodness...if you read that article closely they're saying that the UN needed permission from the Lendu to land...

...the UN needed permission, from the people who where attacking and eating the UN at the time....

WTF??

That has to be the most pathetic Rwanda type excuse ever. It's like 'sure, you can land. Just wait another hour. And....send more fat Jordanians...(burp)'

It would be like the US having to ask permission to land behind the VC...."You can land as soon as we've finished killing your buddies here"

And the chopper pilots...their JOB is to extract mil and civilians from a hostile war zone. What did they expect, picking daisies?! 'We were afraid so we let them die?'

I really hope that wasn't the case and it was just Vollot trying to spread the blame.

When the enemy attacks, it's tragic because people get killed.
When you let your own people die pointlessly because of some already violated rule, that's just total insanity.

[Ted Striker]

**** the UN