Israelis should seriously consider abandoning Israel

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Ergo you acknowledge Israel had a right to exist within the 1948 ceasefire lines, a right which has existed since 1948?

I would not say it is a right per se since the chopping up work was done by an imperialist power against the oppressed people.

Originally posted by lord of the mark
And you acknowledge that the arab states and the palestinians refused to recognize that state from 1948 to 1967, and engaged in acts of violence, including terrorism against civilians to destroy that state??

And? Recognition of a new country or government is not mandatory. Besides, your logic cuts both ways. Israel has been occupying Palestinian teritorry and blocking these people to form their own country. You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by lord of the mark
and therefore that Israel has a right to claim adjustments to the 1948 lines in order to rectify the security situation, as WELL as to reject a right of return of refugees that would violate her own self-determination.

That simply doesn't follow.

[Berzerker]

Edan -

You're the one that brought up there being enough land for the people.

And were we not discussing the 19th century when Indians were being driven from their lands? Therefore, the current US population is irrelevant...You brought that up, not me...

I'm suggesting your this argument that there wasn't enough land is as much of a strawman as the last argument was.

You need population maps for 1850 USA and 1948 Palestine/Israel?

There was enough land for both the Native Americans and the new Americans, and there was enough land for the Jews and the Arabs.

I guess you do.

The fact remains that both lands were grabbed by outsiders and the indigenous peoples fought back. I would not have supported the land grab in either case...

[Dis]

OK I just asked a question jeez.

Talk about taking heat, you haven't seen my real opinion on this matter.

First of all the original post was posing a question.

I'm only on page 2 right now, but I haven't see the obvious rebuttal. Americans would never abandon their land if there were millions of people out to kill them. In fact there already are millions of people in the world who want Americans dead. We aren't going anywhere.

But now for my real opinion. Unless I'm missing something, the creation of Israel was illegal. So you kind of have to expect the rightful owners to be upset. While I don't recommend leaving now, as that would be rewarding terrorism, some concessions have to be made.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Cruddy


I think this thread is the biggest troll I have yet seen on Apolyton.

Thank You

not that I would ever admit to trolling. That is for the reader to decide.

What I do I would not call trolling. Although sometimes it appears so. There is a method to my madness. I like to test the waters you could say.

[Berzerker]

Americans would never abandon their land if there were millions of people out to kill them. In fact there already are millions of people in the world who want Americans dead. We aren't going anywhere.

And you would have Americans move closer to them?

[Az]

Archaeological evidence (at least as of the last I followed archaeology in the area ~1998 and 1999 finds) suggests that the Caananites were gradually assimilated, not conquered or exterminated or driven out.

Actually, to be more precise, since all of the Hebrew art, language, and previous dieties are Canaanite, any distinction between Israelite and canaanite is somewhat incorrect. Hebrews were just one of the dominating forces amongst the canaanites, together with the Phoenicians. ( and were always in great relations with the phoenicians. ) The Hebrew word for god, 'El', was actually a canaanite Deity, who's cult center was located in Jerusalem. There is actually a funny passage about it in the Bible's first book, with Abraham supposedly meeting a High Priest of El, who offered him gifts for defeating some kings.

[Zevico]

Dissident: Why's that? And since when has legality over the creation of a state ever mattered? Fact is, it would be ridiculous to deport millions of people from their homes--just because the arabs hold onto the ridiculous dream that it will happen doesn't mean it will.
Especially because the large majority of arabs have little motivation to really attack (not just swear they will) Israel.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Pekka
If a big man comes to your house and says that the house is now his, and you have to leave, what do you do? You call the cops. What if there is no one to help you? You might leave, but you'll be coming back with guns. Or, if you're a bad ass, you'll go right for the eyes.
What ever you choose to do, you don't say 'Ok sir' and go live in a gutter.

That pretty much summarises the Palestinian position.

[Pekka]

Well I'm not saying Palestine should leave. They should stop fighting for a while.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Dissident
Unless I'm missing something, the creation of Israel was illegal.

Israel was created by the UN, and was able to defend itself against invasion militarily. how, exactly, is the creation of Israel any less legal (or less legitimate) than the creation of any other country?

[Zcylen]

Originally posted by Dissident
OK I just asked a question jeez.


But now for my real opinion. Unless I'm missing something, the creation of Israel was illegal.

thats only one from many many other illegalities

[Dinner]

Israel has a UN granted right to exist. Don't like it? Tough. Further they have a right to defend themselves from the vicious attacks of Arab murders. The Israelis have come up with numerous plans for peace over the years but the fanatical Arabs with their fanatical leadership have always rejected peace and opted for violence.

In that light they have a right to impose curfews, occupy, or do just about anything short of mass murder in order to combat Arab terrorists. Just like the Allies had a right to do the same against the facist scum after WW2. Remember it is the Arabs who refuse to end the fight and who commit nearly all of the atrocities now days; like the Nazis before them I just don't feel pity for them when they get their come-up-ance.

[VetLegion]

And thus they did - They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See the books Perfidy, Min Ha Meitsor, etc.).

Kroeze, I respect your right to an opinion, but you are not serousely believing holocaust was a work of Zionists?

[Dinner]

The sad thing is I think he does. There are many things which Zionists have supported but the Holocaust was not one of them.

[Vince278]

Its more about religion than land. The Israelis would no more give up Jerusalem than the Arabs would give up Mecca. There won't be any real peace until some attitudes are adjusted (and the Arabs definitely need their paradigms shifted more than the Israelis).