Israelis should seriously consider abandoning Israel

[Pekka]

If a big man comes to your house and says that the house is now his, and you have to leave, what do you do? You call the cops. What if there is no one to help you? You might leave, but you'll be coming back with guns. Or, if you're a bad ass, you'll go right for the eyes.
What ever you choose to do, you don't say 'Ok sir' and go live in a gutter.

[Berzerker]

edan -

Cause the Atlnatic would prevent any possibility of a large scale terrorist attack?

Gee, you mean if Israel had never been carved out of other people's lands and Jews had been invited to live in the USA, Palestinians would still board ships and planes to come here and die in suicide attacks against Jews?

Pekka -

If you're not willing to die fighting for your country and land, then what exactly are you willing to die for?

I believe that is the mentality of the Palestinians. Now, unless we accept the fiction that Israel's creation involved taking no one's land, then Israelis are not fighting for their land, they are fighting to keep someone else's land.

Let me put it this way: How can you live with yourself knowing that you abandoned your lands and country without a fight? Or with fight that was too little? Sickening.

You mean it's sickening to not support the theft of other people's lands?

[Pekka]

Berzerker, well you come from a point of view that Israel should not be where it is. I think it is where it is, and that's it. And it's not a question of wanting to die for it. It's a question of fighting for it at all costs, and accept that you might get killed doing it.

[Berzerker]

If a big man comes to your house and says that the house is now his, and you have to leave, what do you do? You call the cops. What if there is no one to help you? You might leave, but you'll be coming back with guns. Or, if you're a bad ass, you'll go right for the eyes.

In the 40's, the big man was the UN and Jews seeking a state of their own.

[Pekka]

And some hundreds of years ago the big man was harrasing native indians? :hmm:

[Berzerker]

Pekka -

Berzerker, well you come from a point of view that Israel should not be where it is. I think it is where it is, and that's it.

Hence the violence.

And it's not a question of wanting to die for it. It's a question of fighting for it at all costs, and accept that you might get killed doing it.

You seem to think the creation of Israel was entirely legitimate, I don't. The land should belong to the people (and their descendents) who lived there before Israel came to exist in the 40's, whether they be Arab, Jew, or whatever. You can't just grab a people's land and expect nothing to happen... But I suspect most of the Palestinian population has no more legitimate claim to that land than the Jews. Both sides have convinced themselves they deserve the land, but I would not be one of those who would stay in a land where millions want to kill me because they believe my land belongs to them and they just might be right.

[Pekka]

Well, I just disagree with you there.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Berzerker
edan -

Gee, you mean if Israel had never been carved out of other people's lands

You mean like Jordan, Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, all of which were carved out of the ottoman empire. Israel and Palestine were to be split between the two peoples in the area - I see that as the best solution to the situation at the time.

However, the question was about Jews leaving Israel now, so this is just a Strawman's argument.

and Jews had been invited to live in the USA, Palestinians would still board ships and planes to come here and die in suicide attacks against Jews?

Well, Al Qaeda terrorists came to the USA, killed 3,000 people including Jews, and their primary motivation was not the existance of Israel. So yes, I do.

[Berzerker]

Pekka -

And some hundreds of years ago the big man was harrasing native indians? :hmm:

1) Native Americans aren't trying to blow us up.

2) Had I lived 150 years ago, I would not have been among those doing the harassing.

3) Unlike Israel, there was plenty of land here for everyone.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Berzerker

3) Unlike Israel, there was plenty of land here for everyone.

Given that the land holds approx 10 times the amount of people than half a century ago, I don't think this is the case.

[Berzerker]

Edan -

You mean like Jordan, Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, all of which were carved out of the ottoman empire.

You must think I would have supported the states created then too, nope.

Israel and Palestine were to be split between the two peoples in the area - I see that as the best solution to the situation at the time.

Which is entirely different from the question posed by Diss. If my children had to die before getting that best solution, I'd move to a land where millions aren't trying to kill them.

However, the question was about Jews leaving Israel now, so this is just a Strawman's argument.

Claims of legitimacy wrt the land is not a strawman.

[Berzerker]

Edan -

Given that the land holds approx 10 times the amount of people than half a century ago, I don't think this is the case.

Why does the current population matter? And even with the current population, there is still plenty of land. Are you suggesting the "American" population 150 years ago was too large to accomodate the Indian population at that time?

[Edan]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Edan -

Why does the current population matter?

You're the one that brought up there being enough land for the people.

And even with the current population, there is still plenty of land. Are you suggesting the "American" population 150 years ago was too large to accomodate the Indian population at that time?

I'm suggesting your this argument that there wasn't enough land is as much of a strawman as the last argument was. There was enough land for both the Native Americans and the new Americans, and there was enough land for the Jews and the Arabs, that doesn't change that Jews aren't all going to get up and leave Israel any more than Americans would get up and leave the US if Native Americans started to use terrorism.

[CyberGnu]

and there was enough land for the Jews and the Arabs,

Not according to the British. The British white papers clearly state that the jewish immigration has to be severly curtailed unless the indigenous population were to be displaced.

So Berzerkers point is more than valid.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Azazel
They're not exinct. They're probably assimilated into the Israelite kingdoms.

Archaeological evidence (at least as of the last I followed archaeology in the area ~1998 and 1999 finds) suggests that the Caananites were gradually assimilated, not conquered or exterminated or driven out.