Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, 15+ Dead

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by Arrian

I SAID BOTH SIDES! Hamas continues to do its thing. The IDF continues to do its thing.

Meanwhile, Sharon & Abbas negotiate a settlement, and shut their traps about the killing by both sides.

-Arrian

But only one side does stop! The Palestinian terrorists refuse to stop even when Israel does. Countless times, Israel has stopped unilaterally, and yet the terrorism continued to kill innocent Israelis.

So, when you say "negotiate under fire", what would end up happening in reality, is Israel stopping its actions and negotiating while the Palestinians continue on their killing spree of Israel civilians!

[Panag]

Originally posted by The diplomat


But both sides don't stop! The Palestinian terrorists refuse to stop even when Israel does. Countless times, Israel has stopped unilaterally, and yet the terrorism continued to kill innocent Israelis.

So, when you say "negotiate under fire", what would end up happening in reality, is Israel stopping its actions and negotiating while the Palestinians continue on their killing spree of Israel civilians!

hi ,

hello , what are we doing in jordan , ......

have a nice day

[Arrian]

The Diplomat,

If you read my posts you will find that I never suggested that the IDF stop hunting terrorists. In fact, I specifically stated that it could continue.

Look, all I'm saying is that the violence is used to halt negotiations. The only way negotiations can succeed is if the negotiators ignore the violence.

-Arrian

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Arrian

This qualifies as one of those rare occasions on which I totally agree with Agathon.

As I've said before, there should be a special gold lined sticky thread for posts like this.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Arrian
From us, I'm sure.



-Arrian

It was against our interests to have a seperate Palestinian state back then.

(And anyway, all the motivation back then was to give the WB (or WB - strategic areas) back to the Jordanians. It wasn't until the late 80s that the Jordanians gave up their claim to it.

Anyway, the Palestinians probably had more democracy in the territories than anywhere in the arab world - after all, how many of [i]them[i] allow females representatives?


(that doesn't mean Israel didn't make an enormous mistake in not further concentrating on democracy in the territories than it did)

[Az]

From us, I'm sure.

Sounds like a deal.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by Arrian
Look, all I'm saying is that the violence is used to halt negotiations. The only way negotiations can succeed is if the negotiators ignore the violence.

-Arrian

If the terrorism is halting the negotiations, then why not get rid of the terrorism before you negotiate?

If a marathon runner has a piece of glass cutting into his foot, does he continue to run anyway, or does he remove the piece of glass first before continuying the race? So, it just seems to me that the logical thing to do, since the terrorism has costs so many lives and derailed the negotiations over and over again, is to first remove the terrorism rather than continue negotiations that you know are going to be derailed by violence.

So, why not attack all out against the Palestinian terrorist groups until they surrender, then you can negotiate free of terrorism? Isn't that what the US is doing against Al Queda?

[Kramerman]

this cycle of violene will only end when israel faces destruction, and must use the full extent of its power to crush the Palestinians. Why do the terrorist Palestinians persist? they know it'll only bring retribution, and more death on both sides.

Israel wants to negotiate, Hamas and the like do not. They are the bad guys, clear and simple. People who call Israel terrorists are idiots. They at least want and actively move towards peace, unlike many Palestinian groups that only want war. I hope Israel kills all those ****ers.

I just wish the good Palestinians (the majority of them, i truely believe), who want peace, would stand up to the thuggish terrorists among them who continue this needless and irrational bloodshed.

[Az]

A very important thing: I think that continuing negotiations now is indeed extremely important. But I don't think that attacks on Hamas should stop, since Hamas obviously doesn't want to stop fighting us, and Abbas won't do it, either.

[Kramerman]

The ME is such a headache.... grrr

[Az]

Yes. That's why I am going to bed. night. Missed you guys. I'll try to visit more often.

[Arrian]

If the terrorism is halting the negotiations, then why not get rid of the terrorism before you negotiate?

Because you can't. You can fire as many missles as you want, and the terrorists won't stop. What the hell do you think Israel has been trying to do? Has it worked? No, it hasn't. They've nailed a bunch of terrorist leaders, foiled attacks, and so on and so forth, but the terrorists just keep on coming. The best way to stop them is to undercut their recruitment. A peace deal will do that. The hardcore crazies will keep fighting, of course, because they want Israel destroyed utterly, but there simply isn't much anyone can do about that. Mossad & the Palestinian Security forces will have to learn to work together to stop them.

Further, I didn't say that the violence was stopping negotiations. I said that the violence was used by one side or the other as an excuse to back out of peace talks.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian




Because you can't. You can fire as many missles as you want, and the terrorists won't stop. What the hell do you think Israel has been trying to do? Has it worked? No, it hasn't. They've nailed a bunch of terrorist leaders, foiled attacks, and so on and so forth, but the terrorists just keep on coming. The best way to stop them is to undercut their recruitment. A peace deal will do that. The hardcore crazies will keep fighting, of course, because they want Israel destroyed utterly, but there simply isn't much anyone can do about that. Mossad & the Palestinian Security forces will have to learn to work together to stop them.

Further, I didn't say that the violence was stopping negotiations. I said that the violence was used by one side or the other as an excuse to back out of peace talks.

-Arrian

actually there was considerably less terrorism after the Israelis went back into the West bank and cracked down, then in the period before - april of 2002. it turns out that killing leaders, destroying bomb factories etc does make a difference. Im not saying its a long term solution, but as a way of clearing the ground for real negotiations it may be necessary - the reflexive view that it never works is just that, reflexive.

[lord of the mark]

heres a little something from the Independent




"Twenty-three killed in Middle East '*** for tat' violence
By Ravi Nessman, AP
11 June 2003


A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up on a bus in central Jerusalem today, killing at least 16 people and wounding 70 a day after Hamas threatened bloody revenge for an Israeli attack on one of its leaders. Passengers were hurled from the bus by the force of the blast.

Less than an hour later, Israeli attack helicopters fired missiles at a car in Gaza City, killing at least seven Palestinians, including two Hamas militants and five bystanders. Witnesses said several missiles were fired as bystanders were trying to pull the passengers out of the car"


A suicide bomber deliberated murders 16 innocents whose only crime was riding the bus. Israel kills 2 hamas "militants" and accidentaly kills 5 by standers - and this is "*** for tat" killings.

No wonder the Euro public doesnt understand whats going on.

[VetLegion]

everytime we have surrounded arafats compound we had to pay for the food we gave them , the spare cell phone batteries , do you think they have ever gave us a thank you , ......

I personally thank you for all the spare cell phone batteries you have given to the Palestinians