Can you live without tabbed browsing?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Couldn't resist it, could you?

Since windows cascade on the mac rather than maximising to take up the whole screen, it's a case of grabbing the Window you want.

Have you ever used a PC at all?
Cascading is hardly a Mac-exclusive feature. It's just an incredibly annoying (and stupid) way to use your computer, and it exists because the Mac lacks a capable task-switcher so they need the background Windows in easy view for fast access. This, of course, drastically cuts down on screen realestate.

Tabs are useful when you have seven or eight sites open at once. Putting them in the taskbar is dumb - it confuses them with other open windows and it's too far from all the other browser buttons.

How so? Why don't you put the taskbar on the top? Or on the left? Or on the right? You can do that, you know.

The taskbar also groups all entries together for the same program (eg, all IE windows will be in order), and you can configure it to place all the windows for a program under one entry if you wanted, too.

And weren't you the one excusing putting running and non-running programs together on the dock, laughing at me for saying it's confusing...and now you're here saying it's confusing for all windows to be listed on the taskbar?

[Hueij]

Thanks Asher, maybe next time you can make your posts as easily understandable?

On a side note, since MS runs the computer industry like since the Middle Ages, why didn't they come up with this in like 1785?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Hueij
Thanks Asher, maybe next time you can make your posts as easily understandable?

If somebody wants to know something, all they have to do is ask.

On a side note, since MS runs the computer industry like since the Middle Ages, why didn't they come up with this in like 1785?

Because computers are a new field. Everything is still being discovered.

MS has (intelligently) done much R&D into user interfaces and determined organizing by task is far more intuitive and far more functional than organizing by program. Unfortunately, Apple is a bit arrogant (or perhaps they think their users are too dumb to adapt to a rather radical change in interface), and still believes the best way to organize a computer's interface is purely with glitzy glamour and an archaic program-centric architecture.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

Have you ever used a PC at all?
Cascading is hardly a Mac-exclusive feature. It's just an incredibly annoying (and stupid) way to use your computer, and it exists because the Mac lacks a capable task-switcher so they need the background Windows in easy view for fast access. This, of course, drastically cuts down on screen realestate.

Which is used up again by MS dumb insistence on attaching the menu to the window.

How so? Why don't you put the taskbar on the top? Or on the left? Or on the right? You can do that, you know.

Most people don't.

The taskbar also groups all entries together for the same program (eg, all IE windows will be in order), and you can configure it to place all the windows for a program under one entry if you wanted, too.

Yes, but it doesn't tell you which one is frontmost and the Dock does that. I'm getting tired of explaining this. You merely click on the program's icon and the list of open windows comes up, or you click on it's mimized icon in the dock. The former method is quicker when there are lots of open windows, the latter when there are only a few.

And weren't you the one excusing putting running and non-running programs together on the dock, laughing at me for saying it's confusing...and now you're here saying it's confusing for all windows to be listed on the taskbar?

Because the dock has large and beautiful icons, the taskbar small icons with text that gets cut off when you have a suitably large number of windows open.

It's dumb having them at the bottom when the rest of the buttons you need are at the top. Not having tabs is a black eye for IE.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Which is used up again by MS dumb insistence on attaching the menu to the window.

Yes, it truly is dumb to attach controls to the window they control. It makes much more sense to have one set of controls for the entire interface, far away from where the window really is.

Most people don't.

The reason is preference. If they want to, they can move them. So if somebody's complaining about it, they can move it. The "Most people don't" argument is mighty silly...

Yes, but it doesn't tell you which one is frontmost and the Dock does that.

Err...why is this necessary on Windows?
The active window is highlighted, I don't understand why telling people which one is "frontmost" is at all useful?

I'm getting tired of explaining this. You merely click on the program's icon and the list of open windows comes up,

I know how it works. I just think it's stupid, and so do most people who stop to think about it, and especially people who design interfaces.

Because the dock has large and beautiful icons

Mac rationale.

the taskbar small icons with text that gets cut off when you have a suitably large number of windows open.

The "text that gets cut off" is a weird complaint, because the Mac doesn't show any text. Just the icon. Explain to me the relevance and/or how this helps your position?

It's dumb having them at the bottom when the rest of the buttons you need are at the top. Not having tabs is a black eye for IE.

No, poor security design is a blackeye for IE.

IE is the one with 95% marketshare, so perhaps you should reevaluate your position on the necessity of tabs...

BTW, I notice that you teach a 100-level Philosophy course. Do you teach anything more advanced?

[Asher]

Nice picture, by the way.

You almost look like SuperSneak.

[Zopperoni]

Originally posted by Asher
And for the record, MS is moving away from MDI and will never implement tabbed browsing in IE. Look at Office, how it moved from MDI to MTI in 2000 and XP.

The problem with MDI in Word (for instance) was that there was no "taskbar within the mother window" (like in Opera).
One had to switch windows through the Window-thingy in the top bar, which was very annoying.

[August Borms]

I stopped using IE immediately after discovering the tabs in Mozilla and now I only use it for sites that don't work in Mozilla.

I still can't believe that MS hasn't put tabs in IE yet It's such a simple but oh-so wonderful feature...

[Zopperoni]

Oh, and to answer the question:

Yes, I can live without it. I have my tabs at the bottom, so it's basically not intuitively different.

I just cannot live without mouse gestures.

[Spiffor]

Since I use Mozilla, I hate it whenever I must browse 'Poly on a IE-only machine.

I browse with many tabs, especially when I browse 'Poly, and I can't stand to have a taskbar cluttered so that I can't distinctfully click on the other running applications.

Since I am at ease with computers, I think the program-based interface is much more logic and fast, as it allows people who are performing many tasks at once to use them efficiently.

Arguing in favour of the "everything in the taskbar" sounds about as absurd to me as being in favour of "every file in the C:\ directory, no subdirectories". Both mean terrible clutter for experienced users.

Tabs are absolutely great

[Asher]

How is it cluttered when it's organized?

[Hueij]

MS has (intelligently) done much R&D into user interfaces and determined organizing by task is far more intuitive and far more functional than organizing by program. Unfortunately, Apple is a bit arrogant (or perhaps they think their users are too dumb to adapt to a rather radical change in interface), and still believes the best way to organize a computer's interface is purely with glitzy glamour and an archaic program-centric architecture.

Ah... The Asher we all learned to love

Zoppski, tabs at the bottom and mouse gestures

[loinburger]

My biggest complaint about the taskbar is that I can't have it hide processes, so it can become unnecessarily cluttered. F'rinstance, I've typically got Winamp running and don't need to access it for any reason, yet it's still down there on my taskbar taking up space. Same thing with my AIM Away message, or the command line when I'm taking data, etc.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Asher
How is it cluttered when it's organized?

It is organized if you have "subtasks" the very same way you ave "subdirectories". tabs are such "subtasks". I'd love to see them in Office too.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

The reason is preference. If they want to, they can move them. So if somebody's complaining about it, they can move it. The "Most people don't" argument is mighty silly...

The average home user doesn't even know it can be moved.

Err...why is this necessary on Windows?
The active window is highlighted, I don't understand why telling people which one is "frontmost" is at all useful?

So it's highlighted when they are all hidden. Interesting.

The "text that gets cut off" is a weird complaint, because the Mac doesn't show any text. Just the icon. Explain to me the relevance and/or how this helps your position?

Your argument that the text helps is silly. People can see what windows they have minimized in the dock. It only get's confusing when there are too many. And that's when you use the application icon. But if there are too many open windows in the taskbar, the text is useless.

IE is the one with 95% marketshare, so perhaps you should reevaluate your position on the necessity of tabs...

Well, we all know why that is....

BTW, I notice that you teach a 100-level Philosophy course. Do you teach anything more advanced?

It's not my course. I TAed for that course this year - in fact I got headhunted to do that. The most experienced teachers among the PhD students got picked for it because it was a seminar based course rather than regular tutorials. It's actually more difficult to teach introductory philosophy than third or fourth year stuff because by that time most of the students know what they are doing and you don't have to spend ages thinking up new ways of explaining entirely unfamilar concepts to them.

Anyway, congratulations on turning a thread on tabs into some anti-Macintosh rant.