Happy Tiananmen Square Massacre Day

[Ecthy]

isn't it despicable how so many europeans think they're OK by voting right wingers but always blame France and Germany (also Austria) as soon as some conservative forces gain ground there? it was really laughable how all the Dutchies voted for those Fortuyn Nazis just because their guy had been shot, and they thought they were so morally just when they were indeed voting for a repressive party. same about vlaams block....

societies in countries that were occupied by the real Nazis back then just have no conscious. it's like they think they're always right just because they've been oppressed before

[Az]

I liked "List Pym".

[Ecthy]

that also applies for Jews/Israelis BTW... no morals when it comes to politics...

that's why Germans are truly superior in that way, we have actually made the necessary experiences to political modesty

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by TheStinger
I'm not sure how UR defends this. Of course now he will probaly bring up some dreadful part of British History because that will make it all better

It will American history if he stays true to form.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Damn you DaShi. I had a nice Tiananmen remembrance thread all prepared at 2 am last night, but my internet connection crapped out and now you've beat me to it. Oh well, I might as well post what I had to say anyway...

On this day fourteen years ago, thousands of innocent protestors were murdered in cold blood on Tiananmen Square. These protestors, mostly young college students, wanted nothing more than to push for democratic reform and an end to corruption in the authoritarian Chinese government. On June 4, 1989 many of these brave protestors paid the ultimate price in their pursuit of these noble goals, dying at the hands of the People's "Liberation" Army sent to end their peaceful demonstration. It is estimated that over 7000 protestors were killed and thousands more wounded, although the cover-up by the Chinese government means that we will probably never know for sure.

No member of the Chinese Communist goverment was ever punished for this appaling atrocity. The families of the victims have received no semblance of justice. Yet, as the years go by and business between China and the rest of the world booms, the events at Tiananmen Square have fallen farther and farther from view. This is a disheartening turn of events, as the government of China has shown no remorse for their actions, no sign that they understand that what they did was wrong.

Tiananmen Square is not the totality of Chinese human rights abuses; it is merely the most visible incident. The Communist government in China has a long history of unleashing misery upon its own population, from the Great Leap Forward to the Cultural Revolution. After the savagery on Tiananmen Square, it seemed for a brief time that the world might be serious about holding China to account for it atrocious human rights record. This wasn't to be the case. Today, China continues its brutal repression of its citizens, as shown by current crackdowns on political dissidents and religious groups like Falun Gong, with very little in the way of protest by the international community.

On the anniversary of this horrible tragedy, let us remember the bravery of those protestors who stood up and died in the pursuit of democracy. Let us also think of those brave souls who are fighting for democracy in China as we speak, in spite of the danger posed to them by the thuggish Communist leadership. Finally, let us all recapture some of the spirit of Tiananmen and do what we can to push for change in the People's Republic of China. The fallen deserve better than to have died in vain.

Never forget...

Sorry about that. Nice post though.

[Az]

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


If this sort of conspiracy theorist approach is used in any other serious context, such as NASA faking moon landings and detention camps in the US, you'd be laughed out of the room. However, since this is about the evil CCP slaughtering thousands of "democratic reformers," bald assertions work fine for a change.





So, how come there are no images of tanks running over these protestors or PLA soldiers shooting them in cold blood? Even the famed CNN footage showed the tank column tried not to crush the guy standing in the way.

Fetish! Fetish! You can't help it, can you?

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Yet, the students, for one reason or another, refused to hold up their end of the deal. This made for some pretty bad situation in the party, because the hardliners could use the situation as leverage against Deng, and time was running out for him. So much so that ruled out pretty much the rest of the methods you suggested.

What deal? The student's never agreed to leave. They never broke their word. And Deng's power was never threatened. The hardliner's only feared the weakening of Communist party's rule. They didn't want their dirty deals out in the open either. In the end, Deng was forced to choose between the hardliners and the more tolerant party members. But all the misinformation and deception in the party led him to favor the strong arm approach, which he was initially against. He then replaced high ranking party members with more hardline party members setting back China's reform for over a decade. Now when anybody screams human rights abuses in China, the only retort of the Chinese is look what the US is doing (a popular method founded by Jiang Zemin) instead of addressing the issue and working to reform it.

The irony of your post is that because of the Tiananmen Massacre Deng lost a lot of the respect from the Chinese people. In their minds he was worse than Mao, who was responsible for the deaths of far more Chinese people. The interesting thing that I have seen in China regarding these type of events is that the Chinese people don't run around killing eachother until their leaders make them.

[mindseye]

To be fair ...

thousands of innocent protestors were murdered in cold blood on Tiananmen Square.

No one really knows how many died on that day, but the best guesses are in the 500 - 1,500 range, with thousands more (both civilians and soldiers) injured. Still quite a carnage.

Quite a few more vanished over the course of the following year, either disappearing into labor camps or being executed. That number is even harder to estimate, as the toll took place over a long period, affecting people all over the entire country. My boss, for instance, spent two years in prison for being a student organizer ... in Sichuan province! He was thousands of miles from the happenings in Beijing!

Today, China continues its brutal repression of its citizens

Some qualification is needed here. Most Chinese people do not feel oppressed. Of course, do something like try to organize a pro-democracy political party, organize workers, etc. and you will find yourself in big, big trouble.

It seems that the Party is normally mroe or less benign towards the citizenry. But woe unto anyone who is perceived to be a threat - however small - to the Party's continued rule. Threaten a cadre's position (or corruption pipeline) and you will be ruthlessly dealt with. Yet for most people, the Party is a friendly organization, sort of a combination of Rotary Club and local labor union. It's an odd situation, but there it is.

[Arrian]

Wow. I never expected to see not one, but two posters attempt to defend the CCP's handling of this incident - mostly on its own "merits" without much "look over here!!" misdirection regarding bad things done by the US. Sure, there was some of that (mostly by the usual suspect, UR).

I really expected a "hey, it was bad, but no worse than bad things done by other countries" line. I never expected "the CCP was lenient."

'poly managed to surprise me.

-Arrian

[Adam Smith]

It is true that Chinese dynasties eventually collapsed under their own weight and descended into anarchy. I could see that as a fear of the leadership. (Have we lost the Mandate of Heaven? ) But I think analogy to the Cultural Revolution is incorrect, since the Cultural Revolution was intentional anarchy. People I spoke with in China wanted to prevent another Cultural Revolution by limiting the government's ability to undertake such a policy.

Anybody who thinks that China is close to a market economy should have witnessed the scene where I had to explain to a local Communist Party official what an economist is. He just couldn't get it. After about 10 minutes I gave up and told him I was an engineer.

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by Adam Smith

Anybody who thinks that China is close to a market economy should have witnessed the scene where I had to explain to a local Communist Party official what an economist is. He just couldn't get it. After about 10 minutes I gave up and told him I was an engineer.

Wow and who says Communism has no redeeming feartures

[Arrian]

-Arrian

[GePap]

Just to nitpick..wouldn't not knowing what an economist is be evidence agaisnt them being marxists? After all, it wasn't engineering that Maxr wrote about, and the Soviets had plenty of economists.

[Saras]

--"...and the Soviets had plenty of economists."

LOL!