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Originally posted by Fez
The Truth of Communism:
The Truth of Communism:
The PRC had to bring in Army units from the West, because the units in the East refused to move against the students and workers.
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Yup. One worker standing in front of a group of tanks to defend his fellow workers and students. And a tank crew, that refused to run him over.
The PRC had to bring in Army units from the West, because the units in the East refused to move against the students and workers.Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... -
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A sad day indeed...Well, all I can say as my knowledge on China is rather limited, is that I wouldn't have taken those 7000 lives, under any circumstances, even if that would apparently be the "solution" that prevented the country from falling into chaos.
Some other way surely existed....how about "negotiations"?
If some of you people do support such actions, it's your free choice, but then you aren't really fit (morally at least) to complain when other regimes argue that killing several thousand people would be the "solution" too...DULCE BELLUM INEXPERTISComment
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Before anyone starts believing that their own govt is any better they better remember that the US Army attacked the Bonus Marchers in 1932.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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You've got no sense of proportion, Kid.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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If that appeared to be the only solution, then I would take it without a blink. Better to take even 7000 lives than to let many more millions die or suffer.Originally posted by JCG
A sad day indeed...Well, all I can say as my knowledge on China is rather limited, is that I wouldn't have taken those 7000 lives, under any circumstances, even if that would apparently be the "solution" that prevented the country from falling into chaos.
I don't, as of now, know enough about the situation to make that judgement. However, I suspect that by the time the decision was made, the Chinese leadership was already too deep in the quagmire to try anything other than force.Some other way surely existed....how about "negotiations"?
You are free to question my morality - though I also question your morality if you say that allowing much greater death and suffering is the more "moral" choice to take.If some of you people do support such actions, it's your free choice, but then you aren't really fit (morally at least) to complain when other regimes argue that killing several thousand people would be the "solution" too...
This is also why I've switched from opposing to supporting the Iraqi War. If you're faced with the option to kill one person in order to save a hundred, and pass up on it, you're the murderer of one hundred people.Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroffComment
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Proportion is the only difference though, isn't it? If the US Army would have needed to kill 7,000 in 1932 they would have.Originally posted by DanS
You've got no sense of proportion, Kid.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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We will never know, Kid.
Also, we knew that a wrong decision had been made pretty immediately after it was done. I see little introspection by the Chinese.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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ranskaldan is correct in his assessment that had the Tianamen movement been left unchecked, the result would be would by the ex-USSR a hundred times over. When the Chinese get crazy, they really go crazy. Remeber the disater of the Hundred Flowers campaign, and then add the Cultural Revolution into the mix.
Still, the reason the government "had" to act wasn't because a few hundreds students were sitting around in Tianamen Square, but because millions of Chinese workers were in the streets protesting, strinking, and marching. Deng may have quipped about the million strong marchin in Bejing, "Remember, in China, a million people is still a very small number," it was mirrored in China's industrial cities all up and down the coast.
What the "Communist" bureaucracy fears more than anything is the political activity of the working class.Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...Comment
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We learned that overnight revolutions do not work, and gradual reforms do.Originally posted by DanS
I see little introspection by the Chinese.
That is sadly something that many people still don't realize.Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroffComment
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ranskaldan is correct in his assessment that had the Tianamen movement been left unchecked
He didn't make that assessment. He argued for the military crackdown, not other measures that would "check" the movement.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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I made that assessment right from the outset. Unfortunately you seem to have missed it.Originally posted by DanS
ranskaldan is correct in his assessment that had the Tianamen movement been left unchecked
He didn't make that assessment. He argued for the military crackdown, not other measures that would "check" the movement.
And I'm happy to hear you suggest another method that wouldn't have left behind simmering unrest an open wound on China for years.Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroffComment
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We learned that overnight revolutions do not work, and gradual reforms do.
Another strawman. There was no revolution going on. People were protesting peacefully.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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"Peacefully"?Originally posted by DanS
We learned that overnight revolutions do not work, and gradual reforms do.
Another strawman. There was no revolution going on. People were protesting peacefully.
Unfortunately the power of the mob rarely stays peaceful.
Let's let the Cultural Revolution be the shining guide to the actions of the mob in demographically unbalanced China.Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroffComment
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Unfortunately the power of the mob rarely stays peaceful.
That's BS. We have had protests with millions as well. Very rarely have they turned violent. Also, the students had been protesting peacefully for a while. Where were the indications that it would turn violent?I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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