Tweet
I think I'll need to divide the debate into two parts.
1) Democratization.
Democratization cannot be done overnight in China. China's primary goal right now should be economic development, because only that would lay the bedrock for a liberal, open, stable society. Undermining the current CCP leadership overnight and leaving behind a power vacuum would create an anarchy that would take many thousands, or even millions, of lives.
From what I can see, most people here agree with that, more or less.
2) The Handling of Tiananmen
Here's where things turn blurry. If you agree with point 1) you would agree that the demonstrators Tiananmen should definitely have been dispersed in one form or the other - whether by appeasement or by force. But the question is - would negotiations have worked? If the demonstration have been left unchecked, would China have descended into the anarchy described in point 1)?
At this point I would like to quote mindseye:
Now - would negotiations have worked? Frankly, I doubt it. No matter what the original intents of the students were (and seriously - do you think they were stopping at just "dialog"?), the movement, had it been left alive, would have doubtlessly spread down the ladder to the proletariat in more fervent forms. And when 700 million peasants demonstrate and riot - well then, the combined fury of 3000 years of poverty would have been let loose. Perhaps, some of you here have to personally see lynching and looting on the streets on China to believe that the "demonstrators are getting violent". But then, that would already have been too late. One hundred Tiananmens and one thousand negotiations wouldn't have saved China if that had been left to happen.
Now, mindseye has posted photos that are tugging at the emotions of many here. It is sad that we can't import photos from the alternative timeline where the demonstrations were left to continue, spread into the vast countryside, and folded the nation upon itself. Photos from THAT timeline would contain one thousand times more blood, gore, and pain than the ones mindseye has shown. And it is not likely that negotiations would have pre-empted that.
1) Democratization.
Democratization cannot be done overnight in China. China's primary goal right now should be economic development, because only that would lay the bedrock for a liberal, open, stable society. Undermining the current CCP leadership overnight and leaving behind a power vacuum would create an anarchy that would take many thousands, or even millions, of lives.
From what I can see, most people here agree with that, more or less.
2) The Handling of Tiananmen
Here's where things turn blurry. If you agree with point 1) you would agree that the demonstrators Tiananmen should definitely have been dispersed in one form or the other - whether by appeasement or by force. But the question is - would negotiations have worked? If the demonstration have been left unchecked, would China have descended into the anarchy described in point 1)?
At this point I would like to quote mindseye:
In fact, near the end of the demonstrations, there were a lot more people than just students involved. Workers were showing up, marching under banners of their factories. Even party members (including policemen!) were getting involved. Teachers from the school which educated CCP elite's children were marching. What a lot of westerners don’t realize is that this was not just a bunch of college students protesting in the square. At the time, many people felt that the entire city of Beijing was slipping towards a state of civil disorder - this is what scared the bejesus out of the CCP.
Now, mindseye has posted photos that are tugging at the emotions of many here. It is sad that we can't import photos from the alternative timeline where the demonstrations were left to continue, spread into the vast countryside, and folded the nation upon itself. Photos from THAT timeline would contain one thousand times more blood, gore, and pain than the ones mindseye has shown. And it is not likely that negotiations would have pre-empted that.
).
After about 10 minutes I gave up and told him I was an engineer.
Comment