What has the EU ever done for us.

[CerberusIV]

How are the Greeks going perceive the EU in a couple of years time when the money stops flowing into Greece and starts going to the countries now joining the EU.

I bet those nice generous people in Brussels won't be so popular once they stop giving the handouts.

[Bereta_Eder]

You are infected with a neoliberal virus which the socialist EU will eradicate, you wanting it or not. You don't have the right to condemn your peoples to poverty just so that your rich will get even richer. That is old America. Surpassed.


About the funds, to each according to his needs.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Azazel
WTF is up with being afraid to eat GM foods, anyway?

It's about the consumer's right to choose. The EU wants GM foods labeled, the US doesn't. The US claims labeling will lead to people not eating GM foods.

Well then, you figure other preferences dominate the marketplace, someone provides an alternative to GM foods, and supply meets demand. But that depends on accurate labeling. Usually, the market assumes no great asymmetry of information in order to function. The idea is that the market will allow the maximization of plural values.

However, the US produces so much GM food that it would effectively be shut out of the market in places where GM foods are not wanted. Hence King George - mister free trade for thee but not for me - wants asymmetric information in order to destroy any market for non-GM (read non-American) food. In other words, King George is asking the WTO to grant yet another farm subsidy by ruling against labeling. Just goes to show that a little thing like neoliberalism won't stand in the way of King George securing maximal profits for US corporations.

That's the problem with GM foods, Azazel.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by TheStinger
Just becasue France and Germany can't be trusted no to fight each other why should I become a citizen of a european superstate

According to the news this morning, Britain has lost out on $140 billion US in investment because you don't have the Euro. In other words, joiing the EU would help your economy grow.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


According to the news this morning, Britain has lost out on $140 billion US in investment because you don't have the Euro.

Link?

[BeBMan]

It seems I missed a great discussion

However...

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Europe has been at peace before. What does the current period have to do with the EU?

Didn´t you post an article a while ago where the author argued that Europe has entered the Kantian world of "perpetual peace" and follows the illusion of a pacified world while the US is the last line of defense of the west against the cruel world outside?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by BeBro
Didn´t you post ...

No. That was Siro.

[BeBMan]

Damn

[BeBMan]

Oh but then what I said to Bods still stands.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by TheStinger
I think splitting germany in 2 did that.

Oh, yes, nice try, but that doesn´t explain why other states of western Europe didn´t go to war against eachother after WWII.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by BeBro
Oh, yes, nice try, but that doesn´t explain why other states of western Europe didn´t go to war against each other after WWII.

Thier Uncle Sam from across the pond served as a necessary pacifier for Europe.

[DanS]

It's about the consumer's right to choose. The EU wants GM foods labeled, the US doesn't. The US claims labeling will lead to people not eating GM foods.

Labeling is only a small portion of the debate.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Thier Uncle Sam from across the pond served as a necessary pacifier for Europe.

Even when we assume that the US had to enforce a peace process between the other Europeans (which wasn´t the case), it would be just one side of the coin. Because peace is only possible when all involved sides really want it. If they want to go at war at all costs, I don´t see how one could stop them peacefully.

[Spiffor]

TheStinger:

If you haven't moved outside of Britain except for tourism, the EU might have done nothing for you indeed. But it is still a place of great opportunity for intra-European studies or business. I'm currently studying in Germany thanks to the EU, and colleagues of mine are currently studying in the UK thanks to the EU. You could enlarge your culture the same way if you take the easy opportunity.

On the business level, the EU makes it even more profitable (or at least directly profitable since it's about money). Indeed, if Europe was a merre free-market zone, there would be a free flow of capital, but NOT a free flow of people, which is the truely great thing about the EU.

Maybe the EU has done nothing for you personally yet, but it can if you bother taking the many opportunities it offers.

In the big picture, the EU, now that it has ensured peace to the point we take it as granted, is all about higher efficiency and coordination, for a generalized economic gain. Now that Spain and Ireland have almost joined the EU's economic higher standards, please tell me how much money Britain is doing in trading with them... And compare with the money Britain made before their catch-up, and you'll understand.

The development and coordination of European countries is a longlasting effort, but it is extremely profitable and useful long-term nonetheless, for all parties involved including the "poor buggers" who pay (hint: if you pay, it means you aren't poor. You're poor when you recieve).

Of course the EU is opened to criticism. The democracy in the EU is an absolute joke, the European Parliament is useless, and way too much power is given to haggling between governments. Guess what: I'm highly pro-EU, and I find it a disgrace to know that Berlusconi and his cronies have a significant influence on what happens here. However, I have no problem with a voter from Rome or London having as much weight as I do in the European affairs.

Maybe because I have no problem with a voter from Marseille having as much weight as I do in French affairs, or like you don't have any problem with a voter from Aberystwyth having the same weight as you do in British affairs.

The EU is an opportunity to raise higher standards for everybody in the Union, with the strengthening effect it has. Granted, the current organisation sucks big time. But the idea behind it, and its eventual realisation (the EU becomes more rational and democratic with time, even though it's taking a loooooong time) is good for everybody.

If only because it taught us to articulate our disagreements around a negociation table rather than on a battlefield.

[TheStinger]

Spiffor- Thank you for your post, I am infact in favour of all the stuff about free movement of labour and capital. I am also in favour of some regioanl assiatnce to help poorere countries, It has worked in Ireland and to a lesser extent in Spain.

It is all the other stuff I am against( or until the whole thing is dismantled and built in a sensible way )