Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Finally the reason for the war on Iraq

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • " The 'mechanics of the policies' are integral to the perception of any government. Because of the fear Saddam provoked in the Iraqi people, their perception of him will be fundamentally different from the British perception of Tony Blair"

    Yes of course, but not to a relevant degree in this argument. My point is that the Iraqis could tolerate Saddam, whereas they cannot tolerate the Americans.

    " When it comes down to it, Saddam would not have tolerated a full scale revolt. Whether the Americans helped the Iraqi people in their revolt before is irrelevant. The Iraqi people did not revolt because they knew they would be crushed"

    It is entirely relevant because it shows the thinking in the government and civil service circles. Pretty much the same people in power now as then (in terms of thinking).

    The fear of being crushed is of course important, but then I doubt the Iraqi army could have coped with a civilian revolt. It was underfunded and underequipped, suffering from years of sanctions etc. The Americans can attest to that, in battle. The republican guard was vastly overestimated. The population on the other hand had guns freely available to them. You see cases on the TV of 10 year old kids with shotguns, and I doubt there was an Iraqi street without half a dozen AK-47's.

    The people didnt revolt, because one way or another, partly through fear, and partly because to them, Saddam was the lesser of two evils, they didnt want to.
    "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
    "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

    Comment


    • errr, dont know what happened with the first post there...
      "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
      "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

      Comment


      • The republican guard was vastly overestimated.
        -Let's not forget, bribed.
        "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
        -Joan Robinson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by elijah
          If America had lots of immigrants coming in, one could expect a similar simplistic, racist, ethnocentric, xenophobic response.

          I dont agree with it by the way (in case that wasnt clear), I just like to think that I understand it.
          We get far more immigrants each year than any of the European countries. Foreign born population is at almost all-time high. The numbers of Hispanics and Asians are growing rapidly. California and Hawaii no longer have a white majority.

          As for hostilities against immigrants, they flare up from time to time here. The last time was 1994, when California elected a Republican governor running on anti-immigration platform. It turned out to be major disaster for Republicans, as naturalized immigrants struck back forcefully and ousted them from all important posts in California. Even as today's Democratic governor sucks completely, voters still would not elect a Republican.

          Americans are more tolerant to immigrants from other ethnic groups than Europeans. The population of the state Washington is only 5% Asian, but that doesn't prevent the people from electing a governor of Chinese descent. Will German ever elect a "Ministerpraesident" of Turkish descent? I doubt I will see it during my life time.

          Comment


          • It's very obvious that they are not interested in the good of the people, but rather the good of those who gave them the money to buy the votes


            Obvious to socialists like yourself perhaps, but not to the rest of us .

            For one, I don't believe a single word of that sentance. Bush is just as interested in the good of the people as Clinton was... and I don't think you'd call him a corporate lackey.
            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

            Comment


            • That is indeed true. I cant fault America on its immigration policy, whereas in Britain, it sucks. Im pro-immigration, I think it helps the economy in the long term (less people being born, more old, less working population to support the old yadda yadda), but the wave of racism sweeping this nation is wholly disturbing. Also anti-european xenophobia is at an all time high. I have yet to find someone in Britain pro-war who doesnt hate the French right now, and I mean really hate, spewing anti-french propaganda and stereotypes like Henry V was on the throne!

              "Will German ever elect a "Ministerpraesident" of Turkish descent? I doubt I will see it during my life time"

              Will America ever elect a black or female president"?

              Having said that, Colin Powell (although he said he doesnt want to), and Hillary Clinton has a good shot at 2008 imo (2004 looks like Bush country unfortunately). I think America could use the female touch.
              "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
              "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

              Comment


              • "Obvious to socialists like yourself perhaps, but not to the rest of us"

                Exactly how many of Bush's top brass have strong corporate links?
                "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                Comment


                • Originally posted by elijah

                  Will America ever elect a black or female president"?

                  Having said that, Colin Powell (although he said he doesnt want to), and Hillary Clinton has a good shot at 2008 imo (2004 looks like Bush country unfortunately). I think America could use the female touch.
                  Condi Rice? I would give her my vote over Hillary.

                  Hillary is an evil *****, the same type of person like Carly Fiorina of HP.

                  Comment


                  • " Hillary is an evil *****, the same type of person like Carly Fiorina of HP"

                    Yes, but she's hot!!! Although Condoleeza Rice is high on the scale of cute!!! God what is it about America and attractive female politicians???

                    Who do we have? Ann Widdecombe???
                    "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                    "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                    Comment


                    • For one, I don't believe a single word of that sentance. Bush is just as interested in the good of the people as Clinton was... and I don't think you'd call him a corporate lackey.
                      -I have my doubts about Clinton as well now, but yes, I did like him better. Bush is just a moron who's put the country in the hands of corporate interests. Perhaps, I just don't like the size of the contracts Halliburton has in rebuilding in Iraq. And really, Imran, I preffer the term Social Democrat to socialist.
                      "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
                      -Joan Robinson

                      Comment


                      • Yes of course, but not to a relevant degree in this argument. My point is that the Iraqis could tolerate Saddam, whereas they cannot tolerate the Americans.
                        Which is the most ridiculous statement you've made so far. 30 years of rape, torture, and murder is tolerable. A short term American occupation is not.

                        [QUOTE]It is entirely relevant because it shows the thinking in the government and civil service circles. Pretty much the same people in power now as then (in terms of thinking).[/QUOTES]

                        If anything, the people who went through this last time are making every effort to not repeat the mistakes made in the first Gulf War. I think that's evident.

                        The fear of being crushed is of course important, but then I doubt the Iraqi army could have coped with a civilian revolt. It was underfunded and underequipped, suffering from years of sanctions etc. The Americans can attest to that, in battle. The republican guard was vastly overestimated. The population on the other hand had guns freely available to them. You see cases on the TV of 10 year old kids with shotguns, and I doubt there was an Iraqi street without half a dozen AK-47's.
                        The Republican Guard was vastly overestimated...when facing a vastly superior force. The Iraqi people did not have an M1-A1, nor did they have helicopters, the reason the first revolts were put down so swiftly. Before the war, a majority of Iraqis probably did not have weapons. They got them after the fall, from former military bases/ weapons caches.
                        "Beauty is not in the face...Beauty is a light in the heart." - Kahlil Gibran
                        "The greatest happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved; loved for ourselves, or rather, loved in spite of ourselves" - Victor Hugo
                        "It is noble to be good; it is still nobler to teach others to be good -- and less trouble." - Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by elijah
                          Yes of course, but not to a relevant degree in this argument. My point is that the Iraqis could tolerate Saddam, whereas they cannot tolerate the Americans.
                          That depends on our performance in rebuilding the country.

                          My feeling is that in the end, they won't be too happy about our presence, but they won't waste their effort on armed resistance, either.

                          As for Saddam, Iraqis didn't tolerate him, they had no choice but to submit.

                          Comment


                          • Which is the most ridiculous statement you've made so far. 30 years of rape, torture, and murder is tolerable. A short term American occupation is not.
                            -Welcome to the world of irrational people. Besides the Americans won't suppress a revolt as well as Saddam's regime. Really depends on how things go. Right now, things are worse than under Saddam. Hopefully the situation will improve quickly, but if this lasts...
                            "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
                            -Joan Robinson

                            Comment


                            • Exactly how many of Bush's top brass have strong corporate links?


                              Compared to regular administrations? It isn't much more than Clinton's, I can tell you that. It would only figure that people in an administration would have corporate links. You aren't exactly pulling homeless people off the streets to work as your Cabinet members.

                              And really, Imran, I preffer the term Social Democrat to socialist.


                              Same difference.
                              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                              Comment


                              • Socialists are Socialists, no matter the adjectives attached.
                                Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                                "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                                He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X