Arab countries treat Palestinians far worse than Israel

[Kidlicious]

Spiffor,

You're being a bit silly.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Even without the nuclear weapons we wouldn't go to war against you. France and the US share democratic values and even with all the rhetoric there is no plan, whatsoever, to go to war with France. None, nada, zip. To think that only nuclear weapons is keeping the US at bay is ludicrous.

hi ,

" democratic values" , ...

sure , if one does not take in account the covert ops that take place by those two in a dozen countries , ....

have a nice day

[Panag]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Wrong. The right answer is :

THERE IS NO WAY WE WILL EVER GO TO WAR AGAINST A NUCLEAR FRANCE

hi ,

now ya said it , as long as they keep that handfull of boomers with icbm's no-one is going to mess with them on a serious level , ..... except an other nuclear weapons capable country , .....

have a nice day

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, democratic values. A belief in human rights and that people should have a say in their governance. The covert ops has no relevance because even the most enlightened country has that. To pooh-pooh democratic values that Western democracies share is selling those values very short.

This is the reason the US and France will never go to war. They may bark and yell at each other, but in the end we share a common bond. We share common values. We have our rough patches, but we are allies.

[Spiffor]

Indeed, I don't think there are war plans between France and the US, and I am damn glad that it's so.

However, I continue to think war is first motivated by power play. Should China become as powerful as it promises, and become democratic at the same time, you can expect a cold war between the West and China, just like in the good old days of the USSR.
Massive propaganda will be used, so that people of each bloc don't think of the other as democratic anyway. The recent "Iraqi WMDs will destroy us all" charade has shown us the public opinion of a democratic country is fairly easy to manipulate too.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yes, democratic values. A belief in human rights and that people should have a say in their governance. The covert ops has no relevance because even the most enlightened country has that. To pooh-pooh democratic values that Western democracies share is selling those values very short.

This is the reason the US and France will never go to war. They may bark and yell at each other, but in the end we share a common bond. We share common values. We have our rough patches, but we are allies.

hi ,

sure , but for how long , ten , twenty , who knows how many years , ........

"common values" , like the war in iraq -

allies , ..... they hate each others guts but respect one and another , ......

have a nice day

[Edan]

are we all forgeting the invasion of democratic Spain by the democratic UK just last year?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Indeed, I don't think there are war plans between France and the US, and I am damn glad that it's so.

However, I continue to think war is first motivated by power play. Should China become as powerful as it promises, and become democratic at the same time, you can expect a cold war between the West and China, just like in the good old days of the USSR.
Massive propaganda will be used, so that people of each bloc don't think of the other as democratic anyway. The recent "Iraqi WMDs will destroy us all" charade has shown us the public opinion of a democratic country is fairly easy to manipulate too.

I think it would be more likely than one or both would become totalitarian first.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Edan
are we all forgeting the invasion of democratic Spain by the democratic UK just last year?

I'm sure the Brits are trying to forget about that one.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Should China become as powerful as it promises, and become democratic at the same time, you can expect a cold war between the West and China, just like in the good old days of the USSR.

I highly doubt that. A democratic China would be treated as a friend, like democratic Russia is. We may not agree on everything, but we will be friends and probably allies.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Edan
And I have no problem doing so either - as I said, it is a worthless site, just as much as your site. But then, my issue with both sites is more fundamental than yours. And I'm sure if someone bothered to spend more than two minutes searching they would find a site that addressed your concerns properly - and no doubt, you would find some other issue with it. In the end, it doesn't really matter, because propoganda dressed up in a tuxedo and cufflinks is still propaganda at the end of the day. Your half assed argument that "my biased site is better than your biased site" falls flat on it's face, and all boils down to "Mine is bigger than yours is" and is about as credible. Both sites are propogandized crap, no matter how much you want to make out that one is valid and the other isn't.

:SIGH:

What is at work hee is an utter misconception of the term propaganda.

Lets say we had a talk about which mountain was the talest, and this somehow was a heated discussion. I say, It everest, and someone else say no, it is some Sea mountain. I quote a figure form a site that says "everest is the higest mountain", and then the other person says "Nope, that number is invalid! Why? Because the site takes a side! Its porpaganda. Well, that agruemnt (your argument) is wrong. Propaganda IS ABOUT FACTS AND ABOUT INTERPRETATION! A nazi site and a communist site may give the very same numbers, and yet view them in utterly different way. what makes something propaganda is not the just the numbers involved, BUT THE SPIN ON THOSE NUMBERS.

The site I found is full of quotes: now, why do i think quotes are important? Becuase you can chekc them out! Look at the very first article given here: the author chose to put in a quote from Twain, one I have seen many times in por-Israeli sites. NOw, how many times does someone who see's that quote think: "hmm, is it real?" I don;t know, obviosuly not to often if it keeps making the rounds. But because the supposed site material was given, someone (gsmoove) was able to go to the source and find out that it was a quote cut apart to make apoint, but one that did not trully represent what the author had stated. Having given a source, somoen was able to verify, and in this case, see that it was wrong.

The site you gave me had 2 citation in all of it, and as I said, the first one badly done. BUt lets say it is well done. You site gave me 1 source that says :hey, only 250,000 people lived there, which of course you then transalte to "empty" (since when are 250,000 an empty place?). The site I linked gave one source for a number, a number 100,000 people higher for the same time preriod (is 250k empty, but 350k not? why not?) and then a number on the eve of 1914. Then it gives multiple other quotes, all from Zionists, about their feelings on the matter, where it pertained to the notion that the land was 'empty'. It gives far more source material to chose from, far more diverse quotes, much more ingo, and most of it from Israelis, form the period. Becuase of that simple difference in quantity, and quality, I think and judge it a better site, not because of it political leaning, BUT BY HOW IT GOES ABOUT MAKING ITS CASE!

Everytime there is an ME thread, cybergnu comes and states he won;t accept Israeli papers becuase they are biased, and constantly poeple say that itself is biased. I agre, that is biased, I read haaretz and find it a trustworthy paper. BUt what you are doing now Edan, calling somehting "propaganda" becase of it feeling, is the same thing Cybergnu does to the Israeli press, and to me, it involves a great amount of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice. Yes, dishonesty and cowardice. You attempt to avoid an issue not by arguing about the interpetaion, but the source, and thus avoid the issue.

Lets say that 250,00 is correct. As I aksed before, is that empty? How many people lived in Sao paolo in 1880? half a million? There are over 14 million people there now. Was Sao Paolo "empty" in 1880, because it did not hold the numbers of people it could in theory hold, given vast changes in gricultural methods, land managuement, building technicques, sanitation, transportation, so forth and so on? And if the numbers I give (which come from an Ottamn scholar, not someone who even writes on the ME issue as a career) for the eve of WW1 are correct, what is your response? do you have one? or do you aim to dodge the question?

Let me repeat it again: There are arguemnts about numbers, and about interpretations. I don;t give a rats ass who gives me a number, as long as I either trust the person, or if I don;t, how they went about getting it, and where I could go get it myself if I trully think it is questionable. To reject numbers because of the political slant of a site is cowardly. I gave you my question about the method of the site you gave me, of how they "present" the facts they give. All you have ever doen is complain that "my site is pro-palestinians and so it MUSt be biased". Well, look at it and give me your problems about HOW it presents its info.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Damn that's a long post...

*gets popcorn*

(well, might as well, since the other debate... btw me and GePap will never get resolved )

[Spiffor]

Good post Ge

But show me all the figures you want, there is no way a sea mountain is taller than the Everest

[Edan]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Damn that's a long post...

Well, I guess we've resolved that his is longer than mine.

*gets popcorn*

(well, might as well, since the other debate... btw me and GePap will never get resolved )

And you think the one between me and him will be? It's obvious it will never be resolved because we have fundamentally different philosophies.

[Imran Siddiqui]

But show me all the figures you want, there is no way a sea mountain is taller than the Everest

But it is .

And you think the one between me and him will be? It's obvious it will never be resolved because we have fundamentally different philosophies.

Yeah, but yours will end up being more fun, and there may be room in the far future for some agreement.. on something .