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Is it time to think things over? Chimps are people too.

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  • Is it time to think things over? Chimps are people too.

    New Scientist article



    Chimps are human, gene study implies


    22:00 19 May 03

    NewScientist.com news service

    The latest twist in the debate over how much DNA separates humans from chimpanzees suggests we are so closely related that chimps should not only be part of the same taxonomic family, but also the same genus.

    The new study found that 99.4 percent of the most critical DNA sites are identical in the corresponding human and chimp genes. With that close a relationship, the two living chimp species belong in the genus Homo, says Morris Goodman of Wayne State University in Detroit.

    The closeness of relationship between chimps and humans has become an important issue outside taxonomy, becoming part of the debate over the use of chimps in laboratory experiments and over their conservation in the wild.

    Traditionally chimps are classified with the other great apes, gorillas and orangutans, in the family Pongidae, separated from the human family Hominidae. Within Hominidae, most paleoanthropologists now class virtually all hominid fossils in three genera, Homo, Australopithecus, or Ardipithecus.

    On the basis of the new study, Goodman would not only put modern humans and all fossils back to the human-chimp divergence into Homo, but would also include the common chimp (Pan troglodytes) and the bonobo (Pan paniscus).


    "The third chimpanzee"


    It is not the first time such a suggestion has been made - in 1991 physiologist and ecologist Jared Diamond called humans "the third chimpanzee". But subsequent genetic comparisons have yielded varying results, depending on how the genotypes are compared.

    Goodman compared published sequences of 97 genes on six species, including humans, chimps, gorillas, orangutans, and Old World monkeys. He looked only at what he considered the most functional DNA, bases which cannot be changed without a consequent change in the amino acid coded for by the gene.

    Among these, he found that 99.4 percent were identical in humans and chimps. He found a lower correspondence for bases that could be changed without affecting the amino acid, with 98.4 percent identical for chimps and humans and the same for the "junk" DNA outside coding regions. Goodman believes the differences are larger for non-coding DNA because their sequences are not biologically critical.


    Split date


    His correlations are much higher than the 95 per cent similarity reported in 2002 by Roy Britten of the California Institute of Technology. Goodman does not disagree with those results, he told New Scientist, but points out that the differences analysed by Britten are not important to gene function because 98 percent of the DNA did not code for proteins

    The small difference between genotypes reflects the recent split between chimps and humans, says Goodman, who dates the divergence to between five and six million years ago.

    But Sandy Harcourt, an anthropologist at the University of California at Davis, believes chimps and humans split six to 10 million years ago. "That's an awful long time to be in the same genus," he told New Scientist.

    Classifying chimps as human might raise their conservation profile, but Harcourt hopes that is not the only way to get people to worry about them. "I'd prefer to go the other way, and consider more things that aren't human" as important for conservation, he says.



    If true, will we accept chimps as our brethen, or change our definition of human? Or will we continue with our everyday life, full of contradictions and inconsistencies?

    For some reason, this is extremely troubling me.
    urgh.NSFW

  • #2
    I think there are some chimps that are smarter than some humans.
    To us, it is the BEAST.

    Comment


    • #3
      I share 99.9% of my DNA with the rest of the human race yet if they were to be hunted for bushmeat and alternative medicine, I'd actually be less bothered about it than when chimps are hunted. Odd.

      *calmly starts measuring out lengths needed for an Azazel fur coat*
      Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
      -Richard Dawkins

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sava
        I think there are some chimps that are smarter than some humans.
        Eventis is the only refuge of the spammer. Join us now.
        Long live teh paranoia smiley!

        Comment


        • #5
          exactly
          To us, it is the BEAST.

          Comment


          • #6
            How can chimps be consdidered homo when they split from 'humans' >6 million years ago yet hominids placed in Australopithecus are <5 MYO?

            Comment


            • #7
              Get your pseudo-political crap out of here, both of you. This is a serious ethics thread, and if you'll try to threadjack it for spam, I'll have no problem to complain to the mods.
              urgh.NSFW

              Comment


              • #8
                Voting rights for Chimps!
                "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I wonder how long will it take for some missionary to try and convert them to Christianity.
                  "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is a serious ethics thread
                    To us, it is the BEAST.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Wasn't there a thread about this yesterday?

                      -Arrian
                      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How can chimps be consdidered homo when they split from 'humans' >6 million years ago yet hominids placed in Australopithecus are <5 MYO?

                        It appears that they want to consider Australopithecus as a human, too. But this is a problem, since ancient creatures are classified according to their various phenotypes, and not genetics, so this is a completely different comparison.

                        Now, you'll get the scary, yet valid, question: if Chimps are not humans because of phenotype, there are heaps of people with various genetical degenerative deseases that don't look "human", as well. are we free to kill them too? Or must we stop the killing of the monkeys, as well?

                        Should intelligence be a key to measuring creatures? The geneticists make a valid point, yet how much of that DNA is really human and not "hitchhiker" DNA is yet to be seen.
                        urgh.NSFW

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There was a thread on this yesterday, and I posted in it, but it went precisely nowhere:



                          Carry on. Maybe this one will turn into a good discussion.

                          -Arrian
                          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Oh. I see. never bothered to open that thread, since it had a funny/stupid looking title.
                            urgh.NSFW

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't know about you, but on visits to the zoo, in pictures or on TV, I get the 'feeling' of humanity when i look in a chimps eyes.

                              The homo has always been an artifically elitist genus (man likes to seperate himself from the beasts)

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