Where do you stand politically?

[laurentius]

The Political Compass

Economic Left/Right: -5.75
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.74

I think that equals 3..

[Dis]

-12 for me.

I only believe in the hive structure. No one should be in charge. Everyone should be equal irregardless of what they want.

[Thirgaral]

I will reply to you in chronoligocal order....:
ok...

There are more than two ideologies, however a left-right scale is commonly used for many things, and most people who vote know where their party lies on it. There are far more, but you can still lie somewhere on a left-right line. However there is the problem with economic libertarians who would be right, and authoritarians who would also be right.

I agree

Who is "they" and what is "it?"

"They" are the fascists and "it" is taking care of them...

They are capitalists according to the classical definition of socialism - worker control of the means of production. Of course, since the social democrats have become relatively politically powerful in Europe, social democracy has been associated with socialism.

yes, they're actually supposed to be capitalistic...but those here in Sweden just aren't...as in many other countries....

Then why did you say that you don't associate with anarchists? In any case, it's pretty clear that either you don't know anything about your friends' political opinions, or your friends have no idea what they're talking about.

By saying that I didn't associate with them I meant that I don't agree with them, I can still have a fun time with them And no, they probably don't know what they're talking about...(they're anarchists )but there's probably different kinds of Anarchisms just as any other ideology....

Canada, the US, Scandinavia, western Europe, Australia, etc, etc, etc. are all social democracies to varying degrees. There are still privately owned companies, stock exchanges, no limits (outside of taxes) to how wealthy one can get on their own, among many other capitalist notions. Just because there are some socialist elements (public health care, education, utilities, etc.) does not mean that capitalism has been stamped out.

Uhm...what Swedes mean by "Social Democracy" is that what divides it from communism isn't their goals...the only difference is that they don't think that a revolution is the right way to achieve it.....At least that's what we learn in school what is written in our dictionaries...but I may be wrong

Not necessarily. If all companies were owned by their workers, that would be socialism. Indeed, it is what Marx wanted, in some respects IIRC. Government control comes into it in that it would probably never happen without, and so almost always is involved, but it is not a prerequisite for Socialism, IMHO.

Since he also wanted the workers to rule the gov...and that's whats socialism...workers owning their companies is Liberalism IIRC...all ideologies strive for equality, don't they?(except fascism, nazism and some religions)
AFAIK, if companies rule then it's an ideology to the right, and that's why I put Anarchism to the right? But there are as many opinions about this as there are people on earth So there's no right or wrong...

Originally posted by Berzerker


Libertarians are always getting labeled anarchists by people who want more government control over our lives than allowed by libertarianism, but if anarchists aren't at the right end of the poltical spectrum, where are the communists and fascists that built up enormous states to control people's lives?

IMO, the various ideologies ~match the 1-10 rankings like this:

1) Totalitarianism - Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Mao
2) Socialism
3) Social democrats
4) Liberalism
5) Conservatism
6) Hamiltonian centrists
7) Anarchism as described by Ramo
8) Madisonian republicans
9) Libertarianism/Jeffersonian democrats
10) Libertarian anarchism/anarcho-capitalists

I mostly agree to this...but I think you should stuff in some more "center-ideologies" at 4 and 5 and move the rest a bit to the right....
AND, Totalitarianism is very hard to give a number since they never did what their "party-programme" said they'd do... And giving Stalin's and Mussolini's parties the same number is not very good....
I still want to put the fascists to the right....nazis are another thing...but they're just really awkward

Second, judging by conservatives (like you :lol, yes, they are in the middle. Look at the conservatives in Congress. They've adopted so many left wing policies originating with liberals that the Founders look like right wing extremists, it just takes them 2 to 4 decades longer. Since you apparently don't see the criteria I used for a left-right spectrum even after I provided examples, the left end of the spectrum is totalitarianism and the right end is government limited exclusively to preserving freedom and property rights. All the levels in between are mere gradients of increasing or decreasing control via government leading to either end. Hamilton makes today's conservatives look like social democrats, and in his day, Jefferson and Madison were to his right. The fact you've endorsed FDR's New Deal when so many liberals cite him as one of their own ought to tell you how close conservatives are to liberals. That's why liberals and conservatives increasingly fight over social issues while fiscal matters are relegated to whether or not a %1 or

maybe you're right....Well, Hitler is VERY hard to place....

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The left/right, goes:

10 - 'True' Communists / Command Communists
9 - Anarchists
8 - Socialists
7 - Social Democrats
6 - Moderate-left
5 - Centrist
4 - Moderate-right
3 - Libertarian (far right economically, left morally)
2 - Conservative
1 - Fascist (super far right morally)

This is maybe an even BETTER list....but i still think that the anarchists are to the right...and that's the ONLY complaint I have about this list!
except you might want to reverse the numbers, since 10 is to the right

All this is IMHO

And now the conclusion...:
This left-right scale is very insufficient...i know that...but all ideologies can be put there...also, there are different kinds of left-right scales being used and not even the professors can agree on which one is the "correct", so I don't know either...and none of you should think that you do....

ok...I'll let you reply to this now...

[Ned]

I believe there are three major dynamics in politics:

1. authority vs. individual liberty (totalitarianism vs. anarchy)
2. state ownership vs. free market (socialism vs. capitalism)
3. religion vs. libertininism, morality vs. immorality (abortion issue)

Stalin was high on authority and socialism. Hitler was high on authority and capitalism.

In the US, there is a broad concensus on 1. We tend to split, Democrat and Republican on 2 and 3.

Outside the US, 1 issues dominate.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Dissident
-12 for me.

I only believe in the hive structure. No one should be in charge. Everyone should be equal irregardless of what they want.

You are so strange.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Dissident
-12 for me.

I only believe in the hive structure. No one should be in charge. Everyone should be equal irregardless of what they want.

We are borg, resistance is futile?

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Ned
I believe there are three major dynamics in politics:

1. authority vs. individual liberty (totalitarianism vs. anarchy)
2. state ownership vs. free market (socialism vs. capitalism)
3. religion vs. libertininism, morality vs. immorality (abortion issue)

3 is the same as 1, it's just that conservatives like to seperate the two to get their own brand of authority under the auspice of liberty, as long as it is moral in the Judeo-Christian sense.

[Drogue]

NeOmega has a point, but also abortion isn't about state vs individual (unless you consider that pro-choice is state shouldn't be involved, and pro-life therefore for state laws) but about whether an unborn child has the same rights as a born human, and whether the mother's right to choose outweighs it. I wouldn't use another point for it. There are many points that canbe put into the first, which Republicans and Democratic do not necessarily agree on, such as environment vs economic growth (part 1, part 2, with a bit extra).

About Hitler, I think he was a centrist. He wasn't massively pro-market, IIRC, but was very authoritarian. I think the political compass got it pretty close. Thus I think the 1 to 10 scale is just about economics. Although if you wanted to put morality in it, I think state morality is more rightist (conservative) and freedom is more leftist (liberal) but you can of course believe in freedom and be rightist, just that generally, also if you look at political compass, most people to the left also tend to be nearer the bottom, and vice versa. The exceptions being if you are anarcho-capitalist you would be right, or if you are for state controlled socialism you would be left. However to say that they equate to a particular number, to try to say that anarcho-capitalism is more right than conservative capitalism isn't possible, it depends on the person.

But I would say Anarcho-capitalists would be far to the right, (8-10)
Conservatives someway to the right, (6-10)
Centrists, whether libertarian centrists or authoritarian centrists (fascist), in the middle, (3-7)
Liberals a little to the left, (1-5)
Socialists of all persuasions far to the left, whether state controlled or anarchist socialists. (1-3)

Whereabouts in the range you are, would depend on the person. I admit this won't work for everyone, but for people looking for a guide, it might be a way to start.

[RGBVideo]

The right/left axis is totally different than the totalitarian/libertarian axis. Right/left deals with economics and morality. The other axis deals with civil liberties and government control.

The left/right split doesn't give a damn about totalitarianism except if it has effects on the economy or morality.

Amazing, I agree with you.

10 - 'True' Communists / Command Communists
9 - Anarchists
8 - Socialists
7 - Social Democrats
6 - Moderate-left
5 - Centrist
4 - Moderate-right
3 - Libertarian (far right economically, left morally)
2 - Conservative
1 - Fascist (super far right morally)

Don't you mean nazis instead of fascists? I've always been under the impression that fascism equals goverment control of it's citizens, and has actually a very hostile attitude to ethics (Nietzche)?

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Tuomerehu
Amazing, I agree with you.

While one doesn't meanthe other, there is a tendency for leftist people to be slightly liberal, in terms of morals, and rightists to be slightly more conservative. Obviously there are exceptions, and neither goes hand in hand, but for most people today that has some truth in it.

Originally posted by Tuomerehu
Don't you mean nazis instead of fascists? I've always been under the impression that fascism equals goverment control of it's citizens, and has actually a very hostile attitude to ethics (Nietzche)?

I thought fascism means government control and racism, and that being about it. A lot seems to be shoved under that heading. However, most fascists I wouldn't say are far right economically.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So explain why Hitler was on the right with you.

Because he was a reactionary moralist. Fascism, as a whole, is simply a reaction to Communism. It wishes to go back to the good old days and hates the enlightenment and liberalism (social liberalism: ie, civil liberties).

Doesn't totalitarianism inherently involve (im)morality and economics?

Not necessarily. There are plenty of dictators who believe in capitalism (most US backed ones) and there are those that believe in communism (Lenin, Castro). There are those that believe heavily in forcing morality (Fascists) and those that don't care.

Btw, don't conservatives relish how they are mainstream America and those loony liberals are out of touch with the American people? Wouldn't that make conservatives "centrists" by definition.

Conservatives relish that more people are conservative. They don't think they are centrists at all.

Btw, you think Jerry Falwell (Mr. far-right moralist) is on the left??!

Isn't that totalitarianism?

Do you have any idea what 'true' communism is?! It is basically a communal society. Marx's vision is that when everyone cares for each other, the state withers away. It is even more anti-state than Anarchism.

Furthermore, why do you consider "morality" more right wing than economics?

Because we all do. The people who are considered 'far-right' in America are Jerry Falwell, William Bennett, Pat Robertson, etc. Libertarians aren't called 'far-right', and never have been.

What does it mean to be right or left morally?

Moral rightism is the belief that people should behave in a moral fashion. This can take the form of forcing people to do so (Church states) or simply shaming them into conforming (Falwell).

Moral leftism is the belief that everyone's morality is the same and therefore we shouldn't try to impart our morality on others and allow people to do what they please.

Don't you mean nazis instead of fascists? I've always been under the impression that fascism equals goverment control of it's citizens, and has actually a very hostile attitude to ethics (Nietzche)?

Nietzche, while tied to Fascism, wasn't really who the Fascists pointed to (Hitler did, interestingly enough). Most Fascist states imparted their own ethical beliefs on their people.

[Drogue]

Imran: So an Anarcho-Capitalist is not considered far right in the US? I think the moral and economic axis are both seen as left to right scales (here) with goverment enforced morals and economic freedom being rightist policies, and liberal morals with government enforced, nationalised economies being leftist policies. That is what it seems to be here, and I think in most of Europe.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So an Anarcho-Capitalist is not considered far right in the US?

By some, but they aren't seen as far-right as the Christian Coalition. The anarcho-caps are the next ones over. For example, you'll never hear anyone in the US call Harry Browne (Libertarian leader) a far-right wacko.

[Drogue]

Actually, in the UK, we consider the BNP (fascist) party far right, and Libertarians not so, but I see that as where the left-right system breaksdown. It can either be economic, or moral, but not both. It just happens that Conservatives and Labour are at about the same point on both, and thus can be used easily. But the BNP are leftist economically (they want bigger state pensions, more jobs, and the areas they win are the poorer communities). I had to write an A-Level essay on that (left right divide) and I had to start by saying that it isn't like that, but still had to write it as such. Such a crappy idea that essay was

[Imran Siddiqui]

I can sympathize with crappy essays .

As for putting both Libertarians and Socially Conservative blokes on the same designation (far-right), I think they'd both object and start being lefties so they wouldn't be the same as the other guys .