Clash...OpenCiv3...Combined?

[alms66]

Hi all,
I'm a member of the Clash of Civilizations team, and I have a radical Idea that I may be lynched for...but I've got to try.

I've been reading alot of the OpenCiv3 stuff..and it looks great. But I also notice it is very similar to Clash. As a matter of fact, the only major difference I see is that you guys plan to code in C++ and we're coding in Java.

Mark Everson, as you may know, is our project leader, so he would have to ok this...but enough talk here's the question...

Would it be possible for both projects to combine? It would mean alot of wasted effort in Java for Clash, but I think it would be worth the switch to C++ (which I've always thought would be better anyway). Since you guys are just starting up, it would mean relatively little wasted effort for you, and in the end would mean much more creative effort concentrating on a single goal. To me it just seems silly to have 2 projects with nearly the exact same goal and nearly the exact same game models, when we could have all that energy put into one project.

I do realize this would mean some major setbacks...believe me I do. But, wouldn't it be worth it?

[Guildmaster]

I dunno about your programming thingy, I olny learned to program in BasicA that was a long time ago.
Actually I was wondering just how professional this thing was going to turn out to be. My question for our staff and yours is this:
How big is this going to be? I mean, is this going to be some cheap work that everyone downloads and nobody plays, or are we actually doing a real game with a true professional look and feel?
I would certainly like it to at least look and feel professional...
In that I was thinking that there is no reason we can't make this as complex as we want- given that hardware technology is advancing as fast as it is. I believe ought to target for a decently paced game running at 1Ghz speed, too slow for anything less. The reason for this is simple: If we make the game simple enough now to go at a steady pace with p2 500s and the like, next year when nobody uses p2 500s any more no one will be playing our game. Basically what I'm saying is that if very few people buy our game now because their computers are too slow, when they do upgrade (which they will with or without us) they will go buy our game anyway and it will be ready for them. We ought to get another year of useful life out of the thing.

[Victor Galis]

"In that I was thinking that there is no reason we can't make this as complex as we want- given that hardware technology is advancing as fast as it is."

-Complexity is good, but civ games are not playd by people with extremely fast computers. Complexity at the cost of graphics is good though.

"I believe ought to target for a decently paced game running at 1Ghz speed, too slow for anything less."

-You know, those still cost $3,000. How many people could actually play the game then. I may not have a system that fast for years (I wanted one this year, but I might get only an 800, and if I settle for that my next upgrade won't be for a couple years.)

"The reason for this is simple: If we make the game simple enough now to go at a steady pace with p2 500s and the like, next year when nobody uses p2 500s any more no one will be playing our game."

-I don't use a 500 yet... Most people don't use the cutting edge computers. Sure everyone buys one, but people don't buy a new system every year. I had a cutting-edge system in '95, and I might have one this year, but then I won't have one until '05. If everyone follows this pattern, everyone's computer is only top of the line 20% of the time.

"Basically what I'm saying is that if very few people buy our game now because their computers are too slow, when they do upgrade (which they will with or without us) they will go buy our game anyway and it will be ready for them. We ought to get another year of useful life out of the thing."

-Just because the games runs on slower computers doesn't mean that people won't buy it on a faster one. I mean there are very few games out there now that require more than 266 MHz.

[alms66]

I'm completely with you on the technology thing Guildmaster. Everyone must consider the scope of the project.

The fact that is all done online rather than in one large office means it will take longer to develop. The fact that it is a "hobby", and not a full-time job means it will take longer. To make it short, any project like this would probably take a minimum of 1 year. More realistically 3-5 years. So you've got to shoot for what is currently state-of-the-art, or even further, or the game will be outdated before it is even released.

On how professional it should be, I'd have to say more professional than the professionals (because, quite frankly, some of their games look like children's work).

On what is cutting-edge tech for computers...
Rather than just ramble and show my knowledge of computers, I'll make a list on what is cutting-edge:
-RAM @400Mhz bus - old RAM is at 100Mhz bus(for those of you who don't know, the bus is what you should look at in RAM and processor speed, not only the "processing" speed. For example, an AMD Atholon is better than a PIII at the same processing speed, because it has a 200Mhz bus instead of 100Mhz, like a PIII)
-1Ghz processor (Atholon, because it has 200Mhz bus instead of the PIII's 100Mhz bus)
-And that's pretty much it.
Those are the only 2 real advancements that are worth the money they cost.

[axi]

Clash and Openciv3 merging? Hey, I have to call my broker: those stocks are going to skyrocket omce the market hears about it!

Seriously now, this might be a very good chance for speeding up things. You see, there are currently 3 kinds of civ - type development teams:

- The pros: Firaxis, Activision and BHG, that both want to make the next Civilisation bestseller and grow themselves rich.

- The clones: The creators of games like Great Nations, Freeciv and Civ2Evolution. These games are direct clones of the civ 1-2 game concept, without any really radical changes. Game development here is centered around programming, the AI, the interface, multiplayer, etc. The teams are programmer based and are developping the games rapidly.

- The visionaries: Manifest Destiny, Clash of Civilisations, Openciv3, etc. These teams are trying for the absolute civilisation game, so they develop their games from scratch. They focus in profound gameplay and complexity and try to materialise breakthrough concepts in all of the models. They are frequented by amateurs, who show the greatest passion for game development, but very little focus and stability in their efforts. The biggest drawback of these efforts is that their progress is slow and chiefly on pen and paper.

Now it would be nice if we could concentrate enough people around a project so that we could make it something more than just a vision. We should talk more about this.

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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell

[Mark_Everson]

Hi All:

Well, the general models do seem to be similar in lots of ways... and I'm all for cooperation. But I would put TK's argument on its head. Since we have Already 50k lines of code, and a series of working demos, why exactly if we were to unite, should we ditch that and start from scratch? Just because some dislike Java*? I think most C++ programmers could pick up Java in a Very short period of time. And java is inherently cross-platform.

I think there is potential to do something if the OC3 team decides to go in some of the more radical directions I've seen proposed. If they stick fairly close to the civ2 formula in a lot of areas I personally would be less interested in a potential merger. I admit I don't read most of the OC3 threads - just too little time in the day. I guess we just need to hear what most of them say on the topic. However the general lack of interest in this thread may be an indication...

*Java IMO is much better for amateur programmers (less bugs) and can be made to run nearly as fast as C++.

------------------
Mark Everson
Project lead for The Clash of Civilizations
(That means I do the things nobody else wants to do ;-) )
This Radically different civ game needs your suggestions and/or criticism of our design.
Check our our Web Site & Forum right here at Apolyton...

[Mark_Everson]

M@ni@c:

The Clash goal is to make a short 4hr game Possible. You will also be able to manage everything at the level it is manged in civ, but the game will take correspondingly longer to play. You should even be able to micromanage More than in civ if that's your idea of fun...

[Maniac]

Of course I dislike too much micromanagement! But a 4 hour game? What can actually happen on such a short time?

[dan ward]

Merging projects is probably a bad idea because, as Mark points out, they are fundamentally different at the gameplay level. The result wouldbe one big team pulling in two directions. A more specific problem would be that Clash has ~49K more lines of code than OpenCiv3.

What might be a better approach is to share technology and maybe infrastructure. One example that immediately springs to mind is meta servers (or master servers). Basically these are servers that sit on the net & provide a centralized point for finding games over the internet (Quake3 & Unreal T. uses this technique). Assuming Clash works this way why not have 1 meta server that can support Clash & OpenCiv3?

As the connection to the Meta Server is over the internet it doesn't matter which language the game is written in.

[Maniac]

Is my memory failing if I think that one of your intentions for Clash was, that one game could be played in several hours, instead of the superlong civ/smac games?
I don't particularly like that. That's actually the reason I have no interest at all in Clash and personally wouldn't want the projects combined.
But who am I...
I probably won't even be able to play OC3, nor Civ3 with my meager 200 Megahertz.

[alms66]

Hi all,

I think axi hit it on the head when he said, "Now it would be nice if we could concentrate enough people around a project so that we could make it something more than just a vision. We should talk more about this."—which is essentially what I’m trying to do here.

While I agree with you on almost every point you've ever made so far (outside of this thread), Mark, I'd have to say after reading nearly all posts of OpenCiv3 and Clash, restarting (and combining) the project does seem like a good idea. Most of these topics have been beaten to death on the Clash forums, and we all (OpenCiv and Clash) seem to agree on nearly everything. You yourself said you have too much work to do, so if we freed you up from programming, by getting the OC3 programmers, that would help (hence the switch to C++ has another benefit.), also if C++ programmers can easily make the switch to Java, why not the other way around? (to get our Java programmers doing C++).

Also, you say we have 50k lines of code..., but how much is good? We are recoding the economic model, the tech model, and writing in a workable/playable (by industry standards) diplomacy model (amongst other things) for demo5, so how much do we really have?...and how much could just easily be converted? And btw, I'm not suggesting starting from scratch...most of it would be merely converting from Java to C++.

We have a series of working demos...sure, but like I said, there would be some waste to the merger, but all for a mutual and beneficial goal, while most likely ending up with a much better game.

General lack of interest in the topic...I think that's more due to OpenCiv3 people not knowing as much as I do about Clash & OC3 (both), and their general enthusiasm for their game, and not ours...but I could be wrong.

Java being as good as C++...not even close. Java started as an internet-based script to write applets and then grew into a language. Believe it or not, java is just like windows to DOS. Windows needs DOS to run (which makes windows take more memory and more time to run), just as Java needs C++ to run (which again takes more memory and time). While Java is better for amateur programmers to learn and use (because of the amount of resources available online), IMO it will eventually lead to an amateur game, which is the only downside I see in Clash.

If you remember, Mark, I promised my help as long as the project survived (which is hopefully til the end), but that was because I had a *VERY, VERY* similar design concept that I just felt it would be better to join Clash rather than use my time trying to start a new project, which is the same way I feel about OpenCiv3. If both were up when I decided to join one, I would have picked OpenCiv3, just because of the C++ thing. I admit I can't program worth a s**t, and can't write anything close to what you can, but I know a lot about computers, their internal workings, and languages...I just can't get used to that Object Oriented style (which is why I can't program worth a s**t). Anyway, from what I know about computers and the software, C++ is essentially the master and Java is the slave, so even though you write in Java, it is essentially C++, it just doesn't look the same, or run the same, because it has to convert from Java to C++ to machine code, whereas C++ goes straight to machine code, which makes it better (that's just to make a long technical and boring story short).

Anyway, it was just a thought to better help us all create a game we could and would want to play. I figured I’d get lynched for it but mostly I wasn’t, so I’d be just fine if the thought died. But I really think we should all consider this again as a worthy move, if not for our own sanity’s sake, for those who choose to play the game we end up creating.

[The Joker]

This is getting interesting.

I have not read much of the Clash design, apart from the government model. But from the small amount that I have read I must say that I like it. It definately has the same spirit as I and the other OC3 designers had in mind for our game.

So with my current knowledge I am for the two projects combining. We must know that we are both Davids, where Firaxis and the others are Goliath. We have very limited ressources availible, and as we all just have the projects as a hobby we can not even use all of our time on the project. But, unlike Firaxis we have a dream. A vision. Axi pointed it out perfectly. We are visionaries. This if our advantage. Others are the open source aspect: At least for OC3 there is no real line between members of the team and those outside it. All that are interested can join, and they just have to do as little or as much as they want. If they just want to post one idea in a thread that's ok. And we are small enough to listen to all that has good ideas. But to use our force we must be large enough to do something about it. Therefor the more we are the better is our chance of succes.

Of cause if we end up with a team that drags the game in two different directions it will not work. But will a combination of the two projects do this? Of cause we do not all agree on everything. We all have our visions. But if we can make them work together the result could be far better than any of the two teams could ever accomplish seperately.

I do not know much about the programming stuff. I am not a programmer and know nothing about the difference between Java and C++. But of cause it is not good to loose 50k lines of code. But think about that it will mean that you will get 6 new programmers and more designers to the project.

Well, we must all reach an agreement on this for anything to work.

I will wait and hear what Amjayee (who is propably the unofficial lead designer) has to say. He is also the one in contact with the programming team (whom I hardly ever interact with). But for now I am for the suggestion.

PS: Mark, you don't have to worry about us not having radical ideas to the project. We are working on designing it all from scratch with very little as copies of Civ2.

[VetLegion]

Hi all,

First, we are unformal group, and all opinions here are my own, not official.

Toubabo_Koomi
"...get lynched"
Of course you wont be! When I joined OC3 team, among my first moves was to get informed about the state and pace of other civ/civ clone projects. You would be amazed how many are there, probably over 20 that have web pages! (Unfortunately I lost my favorites folder in a disk format so I dont have all the links).
Clash was a project that cought my attention maybe a year ago. When OC3 idea emerged in civ3 forums, I emeddiately checked clash forums and I found a wealth of information there. I asked ( and got ) permission from Mark Everson to snoop around, and quote "..point out any areas for collaboration". As I read the forums I asked myself

"why not just join them? they seem to have momentum, and they seem to match my ideas for civ3."

Well there are a few things.

About code:

1. java. I dont have much time to learn another language...I devote it to bettering my c++

2. open source (clash is potential shareware). OC3 will stay open source even with the problems it brings (and it does). Personally, I do this as a hobby and dont expect to get payed (and dont wish either ). It doesnt mean I would agree to less then professional standards in OC3, but that is another topic.

3. I really do like the feeling of participating from day one

Also I am a little concerned about code design of other civ projects I have been seeing (including clash). I wouldnt want to write code that will be scraped later. OC3 will make an effort to present up-to-date info on code status, structure and the code itself on the internet.

About design:

While I was checking out the programming stuff on clash forums I noticed threads such as "Tech model 3.5" (x pages), Econ model (y pages). I havent read any because it occured to me that it would be a kind of idea-stealing .
On apolyton there are at least 3 efforts: civ3 lists, clash effort, and all new collosall effort by amjayee to make a workable game model that could be coded.
Much, much redundancy is seen. Many people start giving suggestions without having read civ3 wishlist which is a must-read for a designer. Probably many areas of OC3 and clash overlap here.

If I invested my work in a, say, complicated tech model for one project and I see it coded in another one without anyone asking me I would probably be offended.

Joker made a fine example by starting a thread "clash and openciv goverment model..". If I understood the idea well, it is a discussion with intention to develop an excellent goverment model without "copyrighting" it to either clash or OC3. We may end up with same goverment models . That is the way I see we can start to collaborate.

I dont want to neglect 50k lines of code and effort that was put in clash. I admire that and I hope we can do well too. Demanding clash to join us is obviously not the way to go. On the other hand I counted reasons why I cannot join clash.

Instead of "complete merger" I propose we agree on ways we can cooperate. My proposals are:

1. starting more threads we can work on together ( like jokers thread).

2. joining some resources ( dans suggestion )

In the process we will have to decide what things will be specific to each game. This will give us all a better focus. We cannot really say "..well, we will test it and see.." for every idea that occures to us. Some things eliminate others (tile and turn systems for example each eliminate a whole set of smaller ideas when decided upon).

Also there will probably be some things that are "original ideas" that emerged to someone and they wants them to be kept in one project (I assume it may be like that with most clash well-developed models). That is good, because if we merged all our models now, what would be "the soul" of each project? It would end up as being one project in two language versions.

I am sorry I havent replied earlier, It is not because of lack of interest...I just never thought this forum will become so alive . I check civ2-MP and strategy forums usually, but this is a nice surprise. Keep talking people

Also, what is official oppinion about this?
We are occupying much space in this ACivs part of forums (even the Manifest Destiny thread that was here isnt any more). Does anyone know what do moderators of the site think about this? Do we have permission for this big "traffic" ?

[markusf]

There are java to C++ converters. As for the whole closed source thing, i can't think of very many poeple that would want to join a project like that. Not only that a java game is hard to install. Plus anyone who knows a thing or 2 about java will just download a decompilier and there goes all your source code.
There are java to C converters so i really don't think much code would be lost in a merger. Java is a interpeted language which means its slow as **** In terms of execution java is amoung the slowest forms of programming. Plus java uses the AWL for graphics doesn't it? C++ can use direct X..... I honestly can't understand why anyone would do a game in java, this can easilly be evidenced by the fact that no professional game is done in java.....

[Mark_Everson]

markus:

open source:
Yes, how Ever did the world manage without it... Its a wonder we could do anything at all Clash code is available to anyone now... The only difference is we have not yet committed that it will Always be available to anyone that wants it.

speed:
The hotspot compiler yields huge performance increases to Java code - well designed Java programs can now easily approach C++ code execution speed with a little thought, since Java is much easier to perform good high-level optimization on. Yes 3D graphics etc. are exceptions. We are not going to have dancing 3d units or other bull****. That is why there are no pro Java games, they want to dazzle the masses with sexy graphics. We will give this time to the AI so that it can whip your sorry a**

One other reason to use java is we are Not professionals (all of our coders aren't pro programmers). For someone who doesn't use it every day C++ is a minefield in terms of memory leaks etc. Java protects from that.