Clash...OpenCiv3...Combined?

[amjayee]

I'm sure we could cooperate with the Clash guys. At least on the design level. I haven't had much time to read the clash design things, so I can't comment much about the differences in our project. But several things that make me hesitate combining the projects right now:

1. We will absolutely use c++. The advantages are huge - partially this is because we have some professionals in our team. Java is not an option.

2. We absolutely want to keep this project completely public and free, from design to code.

If these two things can remain that way, then there's no problem... of course we would lose some time to decide what things to keep from each project, and to convert and change the code to suit the needs. But I think it would be quite difficult, and also uncomfortable for the clash guys, who have given much effort to their project.

So, to solve this, I suggest, that we continue as separate projects - there are some fundamental differences in the projects, that might make merging difficult. If the clash guys give us permission, we could use their code and desing things in our game. Is that ok? Of course we can continue discussing these things, and if we can come up with a good solution, it would be better to make one good game, than two similar and perhaps not that good games.

[Mark_Everson]

amjayee and others:

I'm still thinking about what might work... But I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow, so it will be a while before you hear from me again.

Have Fun,

Mark

[alms66]

Hi all,
I'll be responding in backwards order, since that is the eaiest way to do it on the forums. Also I'm sorry for the long post, it's just that I don't have much time to get online all-too-often anymore, and I have to say it all in one big burst.

Mark,

Hope u have a nice vacation...and don't worry too much about Clash...otherwise it won't be a real vacation...you'll still be doing work!

Amjayee,

1.) I agree completely, C++ is the way to go. But unfortunately Mark doesn't seem to agree. I wish I could convince him otherwise, but I can't think of an argument other than Java sucks and is slower than C++, and it is nothing but a script. Also since we plan to introduce a script language for scenario makers, we will have a script within a script, which really sucks and is really slow as hell, maybe you can help me in my argument here.

2.) From a post I read from Mark to F_Smith (you'd have to read the Clash forums) I don't think Mark cares too much about whether we are open source or not, so we could go open...but quite frankly, I would like to make some money off of the project since I spend nearly half of my available time (between work and school) on the project (and I'm sure some people feel this way too), though I'm not terribly opposed to going open source...because at least I get a fun, realistic game.

3.) You argue that the Clash guys have given much of their time to the project...and you are right. But we have never had many programmers, much less professional ones, like u guys, and Mark has done most of the programming, so yes we lose time, yes we lose code, but in the end you guys get much further developed an explored models and we get professional programmers...I see the trade-off as worth-while, and good for both projects, especially since they are so similar, which I can't stress enough. Also, as someone who has read nearly all posts of both projects I'd have to say there are minimal differences in the projects to reasonably combine them.

Mark and Amajayee,

Marksuf says there are programs that convert Java to C++, we could use this if nececary

All,

Also another argument for using C++ instead of Java is that Clash so far is so increadibly complex and everyone involed in the project is worryied about it's clock cycles, but C++ is a direct conversion (as I've stated before, and Marksuf agrees), to Machine Code, so it will save processor and RAM resources.

VetLegion

1.) agreed, C++ is a better waste of your time .

3.) Participating from day 1, you will be...because the ideas that you guys are bringing forth now have already been discussed to death on the Clash forum. If you bring up a point, no doubt if it hasn't been decided on already, it has been dismissed due to it's lack of flexability or something other...just bring it up again, and the reasons for deciding against it will be pointed out, or if it hasn't been discussed, believe me, the Clash people will discuss it to death.

ALL,

That is another problem I have with Clash...We discuss issues to death, but solve nothing...which is no one in particular's fault, it is just the fault of internet-based projects, and since much of this discussion has already been done, a merger of professional programmers and already discussed ideas-with the help of some new designers, seems perfect to me.

50K lines of code..., I'm sorry Mark, but I don't see how that is possible considering we only have a war-game. I don't mean to offend u, seeing as this is your initial work, but as of demo4, the economic model is completly scrapped, there is no diplomacy to speak of, and the only thing worth-while is the AI and Military stuff...so where do u get 50K lines? Unless the code is so mismanaged that we might as well start from scratch, I don't see how that much code is possible, considering what we have. I know you/we, have made leaders up to things, but isn't F_Smith turning this on it's head anyway? Isn't it easy to convert (key point there is EASY)? I don't know Java language too well, but if you told me what a Java keyword did, I could probably tell you what C++ keyword to use. So in other words, even someone like me, who can't program to save his life in OOP, can convert from language to language...it isn't that difficult.

As the Joker said," We must know that we are both Davids, where Firaxis and the others are Goliath. We have very limited ressources availible, and as we all just have the projects as a hobby we can not even use all of our time on the project. But, unlike Firaxis we have a dream. A vision. Axi pointed it out perfectly. We are visionaries. This if our advantage. Others are the open source aspect: At least for OC3 there is no real line between members of the team and those outside it. All that are interested can join, and they just have to do as little or as much as they want. If they just want to post one idea in a thread that's ok. And we are small enough to listen to all that has good ideas. But to use our force we must be large enough to do something about it. Therefor the more we are the better is our chance of succes."

I know I'm not the most diplomatic of persons (that's because I don't care what others think), and I sometimes have a hard time explaining my ideas (that's because I'm net very sociable...I generally don't get along with people less intelligent than I, which is quite a few people, not to brag , "but the world is full of stupid people" ), but I think this merger idea is self explanitory...some professional programmers, some extensively thought out ideas, and mostly usable code...though I'd change the map to LGJ's idea of a spherical map for the max-zoom-out and a square that is centered so wherever you turn the globe you get no distortion of squares/hexes, whatever, and the map won't look as crappy as Manifest Destiny's very distorted globe, even though they are doing a revolutionary thing--which I respect, the distortion still looks crappy.

Again, I'd like to appologize for the long post...I just have to make all my posts in one bundle...If you have a life, you will understand.

[dan ward]

Any Java to C++ conversion would be painful because there is no direct mapping from Java UI code to C++. To make this worse C++ will require significantly more code to do reach the same level as you're at now.

[alms66]

Oh, Mark, and others,

one other reason to switch to C++:

If you remember Mark, I said I would ask a friend to talk to some programmers on MIRC to see if they were intrested in joining...and they were, they were all ready to sign up, asking for the web page and all...then my friend said, "oh, btw, they are coding in Java, you guys don't mind, do you?"...so they not only kicked him from the channel, but banned him from going back!!!!

To me that says they know something I don't, and even I know C++ is better than Java...so, I ask you Mark, what is it that you are so unwilling to give up JAVA for? is it because you've done so much programming and you want to continue to write so much more code, but don't want to learn C++? is it because you think that we can't benefit from professional programmers? is it because...I don't know what else you could be thinking...I can't foresee any problems other than a month or two while people get aquainted...which IMO, will be wasted on discussing issues to death anyway, and we won't get anything accomplished, but at least with the new blood of designers, we'll get further on model design, not to mention professional programmers can do alot more in their spare time than amatuers, and you've always said you did too much programming...If we combined, you would be freed from that, and would be able to oversee the programming and design, since OC3 has no "official" leader you could be the project leader still.

[alms66]

Dan Ward,

I personally don't care...Java sucks!!!, I cannot stress THAT enough. If it means rewriting the code...so be it. There are so many improvements we can make already...and we don't even have a beta version...many Clash designers have expressed this opinion, especially about the map (which if we change the code for the map, it will undoubtedly make most of the current code obsolete anyway).
[This message has been edited by Toubabo_Koomi (edited July 01, 2000).]

[The Joker]

I still agree with Toubabo. If we could make this work it would rock!

About making money on the project:
If we ever manage to make a good game we can make money on it, no matter if it's free or open. Napster has never made any money what so ever, and it is still worth millions.

A banner or two at our homepage could be a reasonable income. That is how Yahoo and all the other internet companies make their money. But let's concentrate on making a good game first.

Also, those programmers you were talking about Toubabo, would they by any chance be interested in joining OC3?

[dan ward]

The big problem with that is how do you divide up the profits?

Toubabo:
Changing the language will not make things better you'll just have a different set of problems. As Fred Brooks would say 'there is no silver bullet'.

I wouldn't place any importance on your 'coders on mirc' story, any competent C++ programmer has a healhty respect for Java.


[This message has been edited by dan ward (edited July 01, 2000).]

[alms66]

double post
[This message has been edited by Toubabo_Koomi (edited July 01, 2000).]

[alms66]

Joker,

That sounds like a good way to make money.

And I didn't actually talk to the programmers myself, a friend of mine did. Just get on Mirc and go to any of the Programming channels and ask around, I'm sure there would be some willing to join OC3.

Dan,

I have the problem solved already with how to divide profits...but it's a long file, so I won't post it, just letting you know it's solved.

Java is ok for small games or internet stuff, but for Clash, C++ would be better (...it is faster), because Clash will be a *BIG* game.

[amjayee]

Toubado, thanks for your concern in this matter. In your messages, you have pointed out many good reasons for our projects to merge. Here are some of my thoughts.

I think we could greatly benefit from the merging, if these conditions could be met:

-the project would be completely public, like OC3, and the game would be completely open-source. No money would be collected (except if someone wants to make cd's of it and sell them. ) Dividing the money would result in the project turning into a clash of developers. And, it would ruin the ideology of openness.

-We would preserve the Openciv3 ideology, not making a clone of civ or civ2, but rather a new game, our vision of perfect civ-style game, our vision of what civ3 should be like.

-We would program in c++. This would mean re-writing most of the code done so far - as Dan pointed out, converting is difficult, and would result in inefficient code. We would need to re-design the program architecture. But, not all your work would be in vain, you have discovered some solutions that would work as well in the new program, just writing them in c++, and possibly fine-tuning.

-We would re-make the gameplay design; we would not scrap the already done work on either one of the projects, but we read all the texts made, and argue on them, until we have made a succesful combination of them.

-We would remain free; there would not be an official leader of the project, who says this and it is made so. All decisions need to be argumented in forums, publicly. This slows down the process, but results in much better system, since more people can come about more ideas, and the more ideas, the more good ideas, usually. Mark has been the leader of Clash project; I have been the "unofficial design discussion supervisor/moderator" of Openciv3. I could share that responsibility with Mark, and we would share some responsibility to the people particularly interested in some game area.

If we do this, we would lose something. But I think the gains would be much larger. Together we could make a kick-ass game, but some sacrifices would be needed, especially from the clash guys. But believe me, all that would be got back, even multiplied.

About the name of the game, I think we could have two options: we could use the name Clash of Civilizations, which is a very good name. Or, we could use a project name, like Openciv3, or other, and decide the name later.

Well, what do you say? This is a hard decision for Clash guys, but believe me, you wouldn't want to make a game this complex with Java. If you can agree on the conditions above, we could have some future. But these are my thoughts. Personally, I couldn't think of combining the projects, if the ideology behind our project is changed. And no one can make me program a full-featured computer game in Java. Please make your further suggestions. If we can reach an agreement, it could be great.
[This message has been edited by amjayee (edited July 03, 2000).]

[alms66]

Amjayee,

You said everything perfectly in your last post! I do definately agree to all the terms you posted, it's basically what I've agrueed all along. I was getting rather ticked that noone else seemed to see the benefits would be greater than the loses, but I'm happy now. But I still think we've got alot of work cut out for us to convince Mark, and possibly others that this is the right course of action.

[amjayee]

That's good to hear. Try to get some other clash team members - Mark especially - to read my thoughts and comment them. Also OC3 guys, comments please.

[heardie]

I dont minnd as llong as we can use amjayee's cool map!

[roquijad]

Hi all,

I'm the guy in charge of the govt, social and riots models in Clash. I have read almost nothing about OC3, so I'm going to trust in Toubabo when he says both projects are very similar. Assuming this as true, here are my thoughts on "amjayee's demands":

-the project would be completely public...
>>I'd prefer to have profits from this, but, well, I can accept it.

-We would preserve the Openciv3 ideology, not making a clone of civ or civ2, but rather a new game, our vision of perfect civ-style game
>>I'm assuming OC3 and Clash have the same ideology, as Toubabo said, so this shouldn't be a problem.

-We would program in c++.
>>I don't write code or know anything about the issue. Whatever you computer gurus decide is alright with me.

-We would re-make the gameplay design; [...] we read all the texts made, and argue on them, until we have made a succesful combination of them.
>>Of course.

-We would remain free; there would not be an official leader of the project...
>>No. A boss is needed. There're times when decitions must be taken. I don't like discussions lasting months for every single thing and when nobody has the authority to end'em, it's IMO a pain in the ass. A boss is needed and model dukes are needed. That's essential IMO for keeping a project from taking too much time.


As a general idea, merging Clash and OC3 sounds good as long as the merged project keeps the goal of creating a game about civilizations, where war is not the center of it all (as it is IMO in MPS' civ) and where you're challenged to deal with a rich and complex world, with things like social transformations and autonomous economy and trade.