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  • #46
    Originally posted by child of Thor
    1.More crime/more unhappiness as cities get further away from capitol and larger - this is good but give the player an option to do something about it, if they can afford it (extra units (police/MP's etc) and or improvements to counter some of these effects).
    An unhappy city what would I do?

    Of course I would increase the number of entertainers in my cities that is the strategy that I use. 11 entertainers in large cities no problem. 18 entertainers in just conquered cities for me no problem.

    The last thing what I would do is using the sliders. I don't want to weak my whole civ, because of one single city, of course there will be another city and so on...

    Now what will the AI do:

    Here is the population assignment block of STRATEGY_DEFAULT of Apolyton Pack:

    Code:
        //
        // POPULATION ASSIGNMENTS
        //
    
        PopAssignmentElement {
            // percent of workers after minimums have been achieved that
            // should be used as specialists
            Specialists         0.25 //from 0.5
    
            // Percent of allocation to different specialist types (total = 1.0)
            FarmerPercent       0.0
            LaborerPercent      0.3
            MerchantPercent     0.2
            EntertainerPercent  0.2
            ScientistPercent    0.3
    
            Top 0.2 ProductionCities
        }
    
        PopAssignmentElement {
            // percent of workers after minimums have been achieved that
            // should be used as specialists
            Specialists         0.25 //from 0.5
    
            // Percent of allocation to different specialist types (total = 1.0)
            FarmerPercent       0.1
            LaborerPercent      0.2
            MerchantPercent     0.3
            EntertainerPercent  0.1
            ScientistPercent    0.3
    
            Bottom 0.2 GrowthCities
        }
    
        PopAssignmentElement {
            // percent of workers after minimums have been achieved that
            // should be used as specialists
            Specialists         0.25 //from 0.5
    
            // Percent of allocation to different specialist types (total = 1.0)
            FarmerPercent       0.0
            LaborerPercent      0.3
            MerchantPercent     0.3
            EntertainerPercent  0.2
            ScientistPercent    0.2
    
            Default
        }
    Let's take a look on the first block 25% of the total population of the top production cities are assigned as specialist. That is a constant number, the AI won't change it if it is necassery (city is starving, etc..). Of these specialist are 20% entertainer, that means 5% of the total population are entertainer. That means in size 20 city only one pop is an entertainer, regardless of the fact if this one entertainer is needed in the city or not. These settings are not a possibility to use entertainers, but a must.

    So the AI can't use entertainers properly, but it can use the sliders, if you are able to max them out the entire game than you have a big advance, entertainers are city specific (local) and the sliders are civ specific (global), although you have only to "fix" one city. That is the reason why I saw a mighty civ fall down in MedPack2. This particular civ was very strong in science, but than their growth declined, a lot of their cities became Barbarian and why: The sliders were optimized concerning happiness (This hurts a civ's developement a lot). But that was not enough their cities still became Barbarian.

    The sollution of this problem would be using enterteiners, if their are not enough buildings that increase happiness. For a human player the option for using entertainers is still there but the AI used the sliders instead, and its cities still revolted although it was just a problem of one more entertainer.

    Of course I also observated the other case, a city already happy without entertainers and it has entertainers.

    Therefore my conclusion is to asign 0% pop to entertainers, because they are never at the right place at the right time. Unfortunatly there is no bottom HappinessCities. Than it there would be a limited use to assign entertainers.

    That is serious problem, if you want to hurt the human by reducing the happiness for his cities, you will hurt the AI more.

    -Martin
    Civ2 military advisor: "No complaints, Sir!"

    Comment


    • #47
      If it is possible to find the player's government, we could put City Limits up very high for the AI, and corruption way down, and then artificially add them back again for the human via SLIC. This would be exactly the same for the human, but would give the AI the edge in expansionism.
      Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
      "I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis

      Comment


      • #48
        Thanks for all the feed-back guys, and thanks to IW for getting the 'child of Thor' bit
        And Just on that note a readily identifiable 'Pagan' religion would be great to add to your civ's identity.Bare in mind that Cristianity didn't really come into play untill 20 or so B.C.(The bible was composed by St.Paul around 80years after the death of Jesus), and apart from China(Budhism) and Middle/Near East(Islam) all of which aren't very ancient themselves, in the Trio you are thinking of we could add alot of flavour to the first 3000-3500 years by having some sort of choice of Pagan-type religion.Sun-worship?Moon-worship?Thundergod ,Sky Spirit? this kind of thing would add loads of character to the game and given a bit of time i can research into this more and come up with a list of Pantheon's from early religions that the player could choose from for the early stage of the game - a unique unit or two and some other things?
        Locutus, the limit of 64 buildings and monuments; is it just those or are there limits on the amount of unit's/advances etc.I guess it comes from being a 'newbie',but i wasn't aware on that limit and that in itself would make me rethink timelines and everything really!Boo(sad face).Is that limit a definate - can't you say have a long list of statistics(for buildings etc) that get discarded as they get outdated and a trigger pulls the newer stats into the stack of 64? I might be showing my huge nievity here(i've got no idea on what you can and can't do with Slic - basic and a bit of machine code on early 8bits is all the experience i've got!and not much at that!)as to how much room you, as modders, have to play with?I'm afraid untill i get a bit more time i'm going to mostly be limited to batting suggestions and ideas back and forward and helping out where i can.
        And on reflection you are right about the splits of relgions, it would just get to complicated - i guess at 3:30am and after my 5th coffee is was just getting carried away
        Master_Darque i'm glad you think the old religion's should get a look in! And some aspect of civ-specific wonders could help in stopping the most productive civ running away with the game, but the thing i don't like so much about that is that it would require loads of effort to balance all the wonders against each other and as we have a limit on how many there can be i don't think we could have 1 equal wonder per civ all the way through(or could we?).Also unless everything is perfectly balanced you'd get a situation say like in AOEII, where there are definate best civs to play as to have an advantage. Its a really awkward one this because i love the open-endedness of civ/ctp and as a player don't want any restrictions on what i can do,but i do prefere it if the egyptians build the pyramids!What's the consensus on this?
        Hexagonian, yeah your right on all counts and as i'm playing Craddle at the mo these were all features i really liked that i hope get into this new mod.
        And thank you all again for letting me stick my oar in
        'The very basis of the liberal idea – the belief of individual freedom is what causes the chaos' - William Kristol, son of the founder of neo-conservitivism, talking about neo-con ideology and its agenda for you.info here. prove me wrong.

        Bush's Republican=Neo-con for all intent and purpose. be afraid.

        Comment


        • #49
          A very interesting read.

          I hope all you guys continue work on CTP2. It is precisely because of your efforts that I went out and bought a copy of CTP2 just recently.

          You all have made it into a very enjoyable playing experience. I'll be looking forward to more mods and scenarios.

          Cheers to all

          Comment


          • #50
            Just a thought about the religion discussion on this thread and COT's thoughts on making newly conquered cities harder to control. Is it possible to prevent the player building religious building in the conquered cities? My thoughts are that this could reduce the ways of improving happiness and recreate the fact that civ's didn't always manage to install their own religion on an indiginous population
            Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
            Will Rogers (1879 - 1935)

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by tigger
              Just a thought about the religion discussion on this thread and COT's thoughts on making newly conquered cities harder to control. Is it possible to prevent the player building religious building in the conquered cities?
              Yes. Probably quite easily.
              Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
              "I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis

              Comment


              • #52
                Sorry, guys, I don't have much time left right now (it's almost 2 AM and I have to get up early tomorrow) but you've given me some food for thought, I'll make good use of that and come back with a more elaborate reply tomorrow. Suffice to say for now that child of Thor has a very good point about religion being more important early on in history, this should be reflected in the game as well...
                Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery

                Comment


                • #53
                  Hexagonian,
                  Re: fortresses. Oh yeah, forgot about that one. That's a nice feature indeed.

                  Re: upgrading. If it wasn't clear, I wouldn't want to be able to upgrade at any time but when an upgrade does take place, the game should attempt to upgrade *all* units, so not just Musketeers and Cavalry but any remaining Spearman and Warriors as well. This keeps the planning effect in place as you'll still need to have enough gold present if you want *all* your units to be upgraded automatically.

                  Martin,
                  Damn, you have a good point. I hadn't considered that there's no such thing as BottomHappyCities or something, Happiness is indeed only managed on a global level, that *is* a bit of a problem I'm going to have to look into that in detail when I have the time, perhaps some cheating would be needed here (use AddHappyTimers for very unhappy cities to keep the average up)...


                  Well, I'm kind of stuck on religion. I made a list of religions that would be fairly realistic and can easily be given properties to, but I'm kind of stumped on exactly what kind of properties religion should have and, more importantly what the relationships between various religions should be: should it be possible to switch religions (other than from 'mother religion' to 'child religion'? Should it be possible to keep the 'mother religion' throughout the game or should you be forced to eventually choose a 'child religion'? What diplomatic effects should religions have? What units/government/buildings/etc should each religion have (should mother religions get different kinds of properties than 'child religions'? Etc, etc. Many open questions, feedback and ideas would be most welcome.

                  Anyway, here's the current list (bold religions are 'mother religions', italic ones are 'child religions'):
                  Every religion represents one of the major 'starting points' of human civilization: Caral/Peru, Shang/China, Harappa/India, Sumer/Middle East (including Egypt) and Crete/Europe.

                  Paganism (Minoan; represents generic form of all European (and native African) religions: Germanic, Celtic, Greek, Roman, Etruscan, etc)
                  Focus: Happiness
                  Building: Temple
                  Ideal Government: City State
                  Olympism (Roman/Greek mythology)
                  Wonder: Temple of Artemis
                  (Government: City State)
                  Druidism (Celtic religion)
                  Wonder: Stonehenge
                  (Government: Druidism)

                  Semitism (Sumerian; represents all ME religions, not just Judaism but also religions based on Sumerian beliefs and Phoenician and Egytian religion)
                  Focus: Production
                  Building: Ziggurat
                  Ideal Government: Theocracy
                  Christianity (Religion of late Roman empire and almost all of Europe)
                  Wonder: Vatican
                  (Government: Theocracy)
                  Islam (Religion of Middle East, Near and South Asia and North and East Africa from Medieval times onward)
                  Wonder: Mecca
                  (Government: Caliphate)

                  Hinduism (Harappan; represents generic form of all religions of India and SE Asia)
                  Focus: Trade
                  Building: Stupa
                  Ideal Government: Monarchy
                  Buddhism (Mayor religion in all of Asia west of Pakistan)
                  Wonder: Angkor Wat
                  Jainism (Mayor religion in India)
                  Wonder: Shatrunjaya

                  Teotlism (Caralian; represents all native religions of the Americas (Teotl = Nahuatl for god))
                  Focus: Science
                  Building: Pyramid
                  Ideal Government: Oligarchy?
                  Mayan Religion (represents Meso-American religions: Aztec, Maya, Zapotec, Mixtec, etc)
                  Wonder: Chichen Itza
                  (Government: Oligarchy)
                  Incan Religion: (represents Andean religions: Inca, Nazca, Caral, Chimu, Chavin, etc)
                  Wonder: Macchu Piccu
                  (Government: Absolutism)

                  Shamanism (Shang; represents all native religions (i.e. not Hinduism and Buddhism) of Far Asia and Oceania)
                  Focus: Food
                  Building: Pagoda
                  Ideal Government: (Tribunal) Empire
                  Shinto (native religion of Japan)
                  Wonder: Torii
                  (Government: Shogunate)
                  Confusionism (major religion in China)
                  Wonder: Forbidden City
                  (Government: (Tribunal) Empire)
                  Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Header: right after a few quiet days on this thread I’d come up with and just written the below. Just as Locutus posts the above! So I’d just add that I was trying to keep it basic – thanks Locutus for being much more detailed than myself (grrr)(how do i insert 'smilies' into a pre-prepared(word)doc?) and hopefully some of this post is still useful(I’m at a disadvantage in that I don’t know what can be done-so I keep it simple).


                    OK, early (pre-Christian) religion’s and should they be more detailed than the generic ‘Temple’ improvement? Yeah, why not? You’ve got 3000+ years when religion was one of mankind’s most important concepts. In fact why not make religion start to fade in the most industrial (productive) civs? You could remove the happiness modifiers from the improvements (or diminish their effect) as the civ enters the industrial era, reflecting the (mostly true) move away from spiritual needs of a modern population. They now want TV and McDonald’s!
                    The main problem with trying to find information on this subject is that most of the civilisations of this period left no understandable written records, so bearing this in mind, I’ve found that early religions tended to fall into three broad categories

                    1.Sunworship: This was a very common form spread all over the world
                    2.Natureworship: Shamanistic traditions from all around the world and still practised today.
                    3.Moonworship: Or maybe Skyworship, the night-sky has long been a fascination to man and the moon was part of that.

                    This is a massive simplification of the subject, but I think it could nicely (don’t know about easily though!) be worked into CTP2 to offer some variation and identity early on in the game.
                    So as Locotus said he would be using MedMod as the main backbone of his new History of Civilization, I’ll use that to give examples (plus I’m not sure where to get the tech-tree for Craddle). Oh yeah – there is a ‘chicken+egg’ situation here but I’ll put it down as the choice of religion type first, then everything else:

                    Religion Advance Unit Wonder
                    SunWorship Stoneworking RA(+Att) Temple of Sun/Karnak

                    NatureWorship Plough U(+Deff) fountain / Cauldron of Life

                    MoonWorship Astronomy LUG(+Ran)Great sky road* +or
                    Stonehenge.

                    *By ‘Great Sky Road’ I’m referring to those designs in the deserts of South America that can only be fully seen by plane or in space-could be interesting?-maybe give a benefit to more than one civ with the discovery/production of planes?

                    So in this example one of the first things you do (before you start the game?), is choose a religious stance for your people e.g.

                    I play as Greeks, choose Sunworship as my starting belief, this makes available (gives me?) the advance Stoneworking, gives me the Special Unit ‘RA’ (made up name-editable) who has a bonus in Attack (Sun people are aggressive?) and enables me to build the wonder ‘Temple of the sun/Karnak’.
                    I like the idea of a special unit straight at the beginning, kind of a god-figure but on earth, Father/Mother of your civilisation. I’m not sure how powerful to make them but maybe quite powerful (maybe other benefits besides +combat ability and veteran status to stack) say for example:
                    ‘NatureWorship’ as religion then +food production when in a city
                    ‘SunWorship’ = +production when in a city
                    ‘MoonWorship’=+science when in a city.
                    This kind of thing. A limit on the amount of turns they are around (50-100?), but you must be able to kill them – makes them very special but not omnipotent. These are the guys of myth and legend. The names don’t really matter as this is way back in time and they will be forgotten/half forgotten. So the player is free to pick what he likes/thinks is most suitable for his civ. The slaving ability that the special units have in Craddle is very (too?) powerful – maybe limit it only to these archetypes and the specialist units (slavers) in the game. Other special units (Alexandra the great etc) should maybe be just very good in combat and/or some other thing (+ a bit of production when in city etc – but not as much as the archetypes?). I find having a few of these Super-slavers around just too powerful sometimes.

                    How about losing ancient wonders (and their effects) from the game as you progress and then researching ‘archaeology’ (1800’s?) to have an n % chance per turn of rediscovering one of these ancient wonders (and some different form of effect?).

                    These are all just brain-food suggestions that hopefully you haven’t already thought about (too much!). And at the very least if it provokes discussion about how to better improve the CTP2 experience then that’s good enough by me
                    'The very basis of the liberal idea – the belief of individual freedom is what causes the chaos' - William Kristol, son of the founder of neo-conservitivism, talking about neo-con ideology and its agenda for you.info here. prove me wrong.

                    Bush's Republican=Neo-con for all intent and purpose. be afraid.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Well, this is how I view religion should be ...
                      should it be possible to switch religions (other than from 'mother religion' to 'child religion'?
                      I think it should...but I don't see anything that a player can trigger that would switch religions. Even if a player did switch the religion of their civilization, it should cause a major happiness crisis.
                      Should it be possible to keep the 'mother religion' throughout the game or should you be forced to eventually choose a 'child religion'?
                      I don't think a player should be forced to choose a child religion. Although what if there were incentives to switch...
                      What diplomatic effects should religions have?
                      Civilizations having the same religion, should have more regard for each other. Civilizations with other religions should have less regard for each other. Isn't that how the world really works?
                      What units/government/buildings/etc should each religion have
                      Each religion should have its own cleric/priest/prophet unit specific to that religion.
                      There should also be a wonder or two for each mother religion.
                      Should mother religions get different kinds of properties than 'child religions'?
                      No

                      I just had a thought on how to track religions... expand the concept of government. This can simplify which unit/building/wonder can be produced and/or maintained be a civiliztion by their government. It will also allow the player to switch religions, add a period of unrest when switching, and control the timing of when in history a religion is available.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Another though on religion...

                        What if when a cleric type unit converts all of the cities in a civilization, then that civilization is forced to switch religions to the converted religion?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Locutus, I think those examples of religions are just fine and as MasterD’ has said ideally each religion should have its own unit (Shaman/Friar (CTP1?) etc). As to buildings and wonders I guess it comes down to an earlier question of mine – how badly are we limited in this area. I’d love to have everything civ specific (imagine the time to do that!) but I think its probably impossible. MasterD’(tell me if this is bad form – I’m fine with ‘cot’) is right on diplomacy – add the fact that in war if you as the aggressor attack a different religion then you should lose extra regard from all the civs of the same religion as that civ.
                          The start out religions as I mentioned could still be implemented – they would only be around for a while as the more sophisticated older religions in your list come to pass.(how do I do simple ‘tabulated’ table in the forum-mine got all messed up ,I’m not very good really!). I think this is going very well, it’s the very early bit of the game that is the main problem and the more colour we can give it the better.

                          MasterD' - that last point about conversion, very nasty but could be a valuble tool - if we had something to counter it as well(maybe make conversion harder?) it would add another special attack to the early game - i mean religion was one of the likely reasons for beating up your neighbour at this time.
                          'The very basis of the liberal idea – the belief of individual freedom is what causes the chaos' - William Kristol, son of the founder of neo-conservitivism, talking about neo-con ideology and its agenda for you.info here. prove me wrong.

                          Bush's Republican=Neo-con for all intent and purpose. be afraid.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by child of Thor
                            Locutus, I think those examples of religions are just fine and as MasterD’ has said ideally each religion should have its own unit (Shaman/Friar (CTP1?) etc).
                            Nice as that would be, we only have 2 cleric sprites, and maybe an unused samurai. I'd get the AoK monk out, but then we'd have 3 semitic priests, and no others.
                            Ooh maybe I can get the Conquerors expansion Aztec monk
                            As to buildings and wonders I guess it comes down to an earlier question of mine – how badly are we limited in this area. I’d love to have everything civ specific (imagine the time to do that!) but I think its probably impossible.
                            Nope, not at all. Civ-specifiness is quite easy, though it may take a lot of copy-pasting.

                            (how do I do simple ‘tabulated’ table in the forum-mine got all messed up ,I’m not very good really!).
                            The easiest way without using HTML code, is to use the [ code ] brackets, and count the number of spaces you do, so you can lay it out exactly, and use the "preview reply" button quite frequently.
                            Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
                            "I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              IW, thanks for the info on tables and 'Copy-pasting' i can do loads of that
                              'The very basis of the liberal idea – the belief of individual freedom is what causes the chaos' - William Kristol, son of the founder of neo-conservitivism, talking about neo-con ideology and its agenda for you.info here. prove me wrong.

                              Bush's Republican=Neo-con for all intent and purpose. be afraid.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Just a note about the AI and forts. There's a piece of SLIC code that makes the AI build them. They're great for me to use but in the extensive playing I did with Cradle I never even once saw an AI unit in any of them. Clearly the AI doesn't know what they are.

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