Gathering Storm Embassy

[PJayTycy]

message proposal :
----------------

Greetings Stormians,

Do you want Moscow or should we raze it?

Team Alpha Centauri
For The Glory Of The One Yang

[Lacero]

I like it

[binTravkin]

I'd add - if you want it, you'll have to repay upkeep costs between us taking it and you taking over.

Perhaps also add other items to the price like having to clear our 150b IOU?

[PJayTycy]

I would not add anything which might spark discussion on their part. I think there should already be a consensus amongst them wheter they want the city or not. If we just ask, we might get a response immediately. If we add payment options, their discussion will still need to start and we won't get a response in time.

[binTravkin]

I'm wholly against holding a city and paying upkeep for them.

We're already doing them favor by relieving them of the war.

[PJayTycy]

So you fear they will not accept the gift (or delay it), even if they said they would ??

[binTravkin]

No, I just don't want to pay their bills.

And there must be some compensation for giving them a city.

[PJayTycy]

for those interested : a 1-hour chatlog about the exact wording for this quick message

[18:42:14] Impaler[WrG] says: hey guys
[18:42:26] |SafaN| says: :P
[18:42:41] |SafaN| says: next turn vox is dead too
[18:42:52] PJayTycy says: yeah, but we still didn't send a message to GS
[18:43:15] |SafaN| says: well we can hold the turn till they answer
[18:43:28] PJayTycy says: yeah, but we should really send the message
[18:43:33] Lacero says: and if they do screw us and don't accept the city we just keep rampaging with our chucks?
[18:44:07] PJayTycy says: do you share bt's concern that we should ask something in return ?
[18:44:13] Impaler[WrG] says: I'd burn it if we get no response
[18:44:36] Impaler[WrG] says: no I say gift it freely
[18:44:41] PJayTycy says: yes, burning seems the "safest" thing to do anyway.
[18:44:51] Lacero says: I can't imagine gs want it tbh
[18:45:14] |SafaN| says: then we just burn it without asking
[18:45:42] Impaler[WrG] says: no ask first it shows were being polite
[18:46:35] Impaler[WrG] says: the city is in their shere of influence they should be consulted, to do otherwise could be considered rude
[18:46:39] Lacero says: I don't think we need to ask for anything if we're gifting or burning, but gs can screw us and make us keep it. in that case we just need to declare war on them as they're going to be a crappy ally
[18:46:59] Lacero says: that is, we don't need to ask for anything in return. I agree we need to ask what to do
[18:47:04] Impaler[WrG] says: I cant imagine them being that stupid
[18:48:03] Impaler[WrG] says: but if so then having the city will actualy become a benifit in a war against them as its a defensible point (with horses) that are units can operate out of
[18:48:52] Impaler[WrG] says: hey BT you their?
[18:49:46] PJayTycy says: Ok, maybe bt would agree with this message (although personally I find to be too rude)

Greetings Stormians,

Just a note to shut your windows next turn, because there might be a burning smell coming from soon-to-be-former Moscow. However, if there's anything you want from that city, please convince us now and we might refrain from burning it and transfer it to you instead.
[18:50:48] Impaler[WrG] says: why do you feel that tone is nessary?
[18:51:16] binTravkin says: me here
[18:51:29] binTravkin says: my idea was not to pay their bills
[18:51:42] binTravkin says: even if we gift the city, while we have it we'll lose like 20 gold
[18:51:48] binTravkin says: 10+ gold per turn
[18:52:42] Impaler[WrG] says: thats rather trivial, I'm already more concerned about the loss of the Chuck then that
[18:52:57] binTravkin says: yeah, multiply it by X
[18:53:13] binTravkin says: that trivial thing puts our GDP back in line with theirs
[18:53:35] binTravkin says: I'd say either we raze it or not take it at all
[18:53:38] Lacero says: we get pillage cash though dont we?
[18:53:53] binTravkin says: yeah, like some teen gold
[18:54:04] binTravkin says: not like from nana cap, no
[18:54:23] Lacero says: ok that works, say if they don't want it we'll burn it, otherwise we'll hold the area for a while
[18:54:30] binTravkin says: brb
[18:54:41] Lacero says: if they want it they should really take it themselves
[18:54:54] Impaler[WrG] says: well I still think GS would see any demands for payment as miserly, this was THEIR war for ages and its THEIR territorial back door
[18:55:33] Lacero says: right, so don't ask for payment if we take it, just offer to burn it.
[18:55:42] Lacero says: same message but it looks better
[18:56:22] Impaler[WrG] says: How would we have felt if someone had come in and done this to Splitsville, we didnt want it gut if someone had the GAUL to demand we pay them for it we would have been insensed and rightly so
[18:57:01] Lacero says: message: Hi, Do you want us to burn Moscow or hold the area while you come to capture it?
[18:57:08] Lacero says: I don't see anything wrong with that
[18:57:23] Impaler[WrG] says: yes that sounds great
[18:58:52] PJayTycy says: that's perfect Lacero
[18:59:05] binTravkin says: ok, send it
[18:59:31] binTravkin says: wait rather
[18:59:43] binTravkin says: do you want to keep the city?
[18:59:51] Impaler[WrG] says: maybe add some congradulations and stuff about the war ending and the continent being finaly at peace
[18:59:53] binTravkin says: coz they can come and capture AND burn
[19:00:37] Lacero says: so we would end up holding the area and they get the gold from burning it
[19:00:41] Impaler[WrG] says: well they can do that if they want, again their war
[19:00:43] PJayTycy says: yeah well, bt, I don't care if they capture and burn it afterwards
[19:00:49] binTravkin says: I do
[19:00:52] binTravkin says: we lost a chuck
[19:00:57] binTravkin says: I want some gold at least
[19:01:11] Lacero says: that was our fault bt, we charged into a war without asking our ally
[19:01:19] binTravkin says: so?
[19:01:23] Lacero says: sorry not our fault, our choice
[19:01:25] binTravkin says: we can still get gold
[19:01:32] Impaler[WrG] says: we chosse to advance our troops southward towards the city we cant expect compensation for that to come at GS's expense
[19:01:42] binTravkin says: damn
[19:01:45] binTravkin says: pillage
[19:01:56] binTravkin says: I want to pillage it
[19:02:00] Impaler[WrG] says: your sounding very greedy today BT (no offense)
[19:02:13] Lacero says: haha, we can't just pillage it without GS permsisioin they'll go crazy
[19:02:32] binTravkin says: 60h for a sack of gold doesn't seem like a huge deal
[19:02:50] binTravkin says: especially as I'd bet they'd lose a bunch of units while struggling to take the city
[19:03:13] binTravkin says: their strongest unit is axe after all
[19:04:18] PJayTycy says: so, let's agree if GS asks us to let them capture it, we just move our chucks away and don't keep attacking / taking blows from Vox etc...
[19:04:43] binTravkin says: yes
[19:04:51] binTravkin says: I was only taking to wording
[19:04:52] Impaler[WrG] says: were in a forest now arn't we, that makes us virtualy impregnable to their remaining unts?
[19:04:54] binTravkin says: we should say
[19:04:57] binTravkin says: do you want to KEEP the city
[19:05:02] binTravkin says: the key word is keep
[19:05:07] binTravkin says: because if they come and raze it
[19:05:15] binTravkin says: they essentially screw their word
[19:05:20] Lacero says: message: Hi, Do you want to keep Moscow? We're in a position where we can burn it this turn and end the war.
[19:05:52] Impaler[WrG] says: why not give them an oportunity to give us some Causi Bellum
[19:06:17] binTravkin says: Casus Bellum would be if they say they will keep and raze in the end
[19:06:38] binTravkin says: Hi, Do you want to keep Moscow? We're in a position to end this war this turn.
[19:06:47] Lacero says: better
[19:06:52] binTravkin says: hmm
[19:06:53] binTravkin says: no
[19:06:55] Impaler[WrG] says: extend them a little trust (they have extended more with us) and if they prove untrustworthy WE benifit greatly by knowing that
[19:06:56] binTravkin says: burning should be mentioned
[19:07:11] binTravkin says: so your initial message was ok
[19:07:23] Lacero says: I like your english better
[19:07:45] binTravkin says: said by an englishman :P
[19:07:45] Lacero says: Hi, Do you want to keep Moscow? We're in a position to burn it this turn and end the war.
[19:07:47] Lacero says:
[19:07:56] binTravkin says: (y)
[19:07:57] Impaler[WrG] says: Hi, we are planning on burning Moscow but if you would prefer we could back off and allow you to capture it
[19:07:59] Lacero says: "where we can" was too complicated
[19:08:09] binTravkin says: no, Impaler
[19:08:19] binTravkin says: if we extend the trust they do as they wish
[19:08:23] binTravkin says: no CB possibility
[19:08:30] Impaler[WrG] says: CB?
[19:08:36] binTravkin says:
> [19:07:34] Lacero says: Hi, Do you want to keep Moscow? We're in a position to burn it this turn and end the war.

This explicitly states they keep it
[19:09:12] binTravkin says: To get to burn it they would need to explicitly state - no we want to burn it our selves
[19:09:25] Impaler[WrG] says: I dont care if they keep or burn it, as I've said so many times ITS THEIRS!
[19:09:30] Lacero says: and then we can pillage everything in sight
[19:09:34] binTravkin says: No, it's ours!
[19:09:42] binTravkin says: WE can raze it first
[19:10:12] Impaler[WrG] says: And that is the attitude that will get us in trouble diplomaticaly
[19:10:13] binTravkin says: well, there's nothing to pillage tho coz Vox appears to have no workers
[19:10:16] binTravkin says: no, why?
[19:10:38] binTravkin says: We got there first, as long as we don't stumble over our words, all will be ok
[19:11:15] binTravkin says: they will get to keep their catapults and at least one of the axes (which I bet would die in attack)
[19:11:25] binTravkin says: so it's not like we steal anything
[19:11:42] binTravkin says: we ask - want to keep it? yours
[19:11:44] Impaler[WrG] says: I disagree were jumping in at the last minute on another mans fight and we must be deferential of we will give offense
[19:12:05] binTravkin says: we ask whether they want to keep it
[19:12:06] Impaler[WrG] says: or*
[19:12:23] binTravkin says: the attitude is no different
[19:12:42] binTravkin says:
> [19:07:34] Lacero says: Hi, Do you want to keep Moscow? We're in a position to burn it this turn and end the war.

> [19:07:46] Impaler says: Hi, we are planning on burning Moscow but if you would prefer we could back off and allow you to capture it
[19:13:01] binTravkin says: I don't really see different attitude, just wording
[19:13:16] PJayTycy says: If GS would have sent us a message like that about splitsville, I'm 100% sure we would have answered " we want it for ourselves " and then razed it anyway
[19:13:26] binTravkin says: yeah
[19:13:32] binTravkin says: so what?
[19:13:44] Impaler[WrG] says: your attitude is being conveyed by your selection of wordings that try to trap them into not capturing and razing
[19:14:00] Impaler[WrG] says: its their right to capture and raze the city if they so wish
[19:14:01] binTravkin says: no I'm omitting some words in a quick message
[19:14:05] PJayTycy says: so I don't understand why you think we shouldn't allow GS to do the same thing we would do
[19:14:06] binTravkin says: my intent is nowhere visible
[19:14:31] binTravkin says: and if they ask I'm ready to comply
[19:14:38] Impaler[WrG] says: dont try to imply that we are limiting their options in any way
[19:14:45] binTravkin says: damn
[19:14:52] binTravkin says: [19:07:34] Lacero says: Hi, Do you want to keep Moscow? We're in a position to burn it this turn and end the war.
[19:14:57] binTravkin says: where is the implication?
[19:15:07] binTravkin says: That's just a quick nice message
[19:15:24] Impaler[WrG] says: you said your self 'keep' to imply that their not allowed to burn it themselves
[19:15:46] binTravkin says: yes, but you have to be suspicious of my motives to get that out of the context
[19:16:19] PJayTycy says: well, I think I can agree with that message too. "Keep" could be just a word typed in 0.5 seconds without further thought
[19:16:31] binTravkin says: yes, that's my point
[19:16:34] Impaler[WrG] says: their GS they are know paranoids, give them no chance to interprit that
[19:16:45] binTravkin says: they can't accuse us of pushing them into the corner by this message
[19:16:56] binTravkin says: coz if they ask out of the corner, we step back
[19:17:29] binTravkin says: which is actually a good way to show their paranoia is useless
[19:18:26] binTravkin says: (punch)
[19:18:30] binTravkin says:
[19:18:36] binTravkin says: so let's vote
[19:18:43] binTravkin says: keep/without keep
[19:18:56] binTravkin says: Safan you in too?
[19:19:11] Impaler[WrG] says: roll call whos present say I
[19:19:14] Impaler[WrG] says: I
[19:19:19] |SafaN| says: i didn't follow the dicussion
[19:19:33] binTravkin says: mee :P
[19:19:49] binTravkin says: Safan:

> [19:07:34] Lacero says: Hi, Do you want to keep Moscow? We're in a position to burn it this turn and end the war.

> [19:07:46] Impaler says: Hi, we are planning on burning Moscow but if you would prefer we could back off and allow you to capture it
[19:20:23] |SafaN| says: i'm more in favor of the first
[19:20:46] PJayTycy says: I vote for impaler's
[19:20:59] PJayTycy says: so, Lacero; you decide
[19:21:50] Impaler[WrG] says: no preshure or anything.....
[19:22:17] Impaler[WrG] says: is he here, I know he was typing a bit ago
[19:22:22] Lacero says: mine and send it as late as possible to give them no time to discuss
[19:22:35] Lacero says: <- evil. sorry
[19:23:03] Impaler[WrG] says: wait a second, this is for imediate sending
[19:23:05] Lacero says: we won't actually know we can end it this turn until the turn arrives after all..
[19:23:13] |SafaN| says: late as possible = when its our turn we anounce in the discussion thread we are waiting on a diplomatic answer
[19:23:46] Impaler[WrG] says: trying to send this with no time to discuss is clearly a rude gesture and a whole nother matter
[19:23:47] binTravkin says: no, the message should be sent asap
[19:23:50] Lacero says: yes safan sorrry. I meant we send it when the turn arrives
[19:24:08] binTravkin says: let's not be that suggestive
[19:24:34] PJayTycy says: why sending without letting them discuss ???? I see absolutely no point in that.
[19:24:52] Impaler[WrG] says: I motion that the "this turn" portion be edited and the message sent imediately
[19:24:55] Lacero says: I'm overules then
[19:25:10] binTravkin says: this turn shouldn't be edited
[19:25:16] binTravkin says: because it's correct
[19:25:18] binTravkin says: 100ad
[19:25:26] Lacero says: needs to be "We should be in a position.."
[19:25:26] Impaler[WrG] says: isnt that next turn though?
[19:25:38] binTravkin says: no
[19:25:41] Lacero says: as we don't know until the turn arrives
[19:25:44] binTravkin says: it's current
[19:25:48] binTravkin says: we know
[19:25:54] binTravkin says: Vox has 2 defenders
[19:25:54] Impaler[WrG] says: "We should be in position on our upcoming turn"
[19:26:03] binTravkin says: a bit more than half strength
[19:26:04] PJayTycy says: Hi, Do you want to keep Moscow? We *could be* in a position to burn it this turn and end the war.
[19:26:06] Lacero says: hehe, I don't like trusting the RNG too much. it gets upset
[19:26:08] binTravkin says: no
[19:26:09] binTravkin says: we are
[19:26:16] binTravkin says: come on
[19:26:18] binTravkin says: 2 horse archers
[19:26:25] binTravkin says: 3.1/6 and 3.4/6
[19:26:33] binTravkin says: that's not a defense
[19:26:44] binTravkin says: 2 chucks can do with like 95%
[19:26:52] Impaler[WrG] says: vs 2 full chucks yea no chance
[19:27:06] Impaler[WrG] says: 99%
[19:28:15] binTravkin says: so what was the vote?
[19:28:26] binTravkin says: impaler's message 2, lacero/bt's 2?
[19:28:44] binTravkin says: we
[19:28:47] binTravkin says: we're 5
[19:29:14] Lacero says: bt,safan, me = lacero's. ipalaer + pj = impalers
[19:30:02] Impaler[WrG] says: yes Laceros message, do we need another vote on the timing?
[19:30:18] Lacero says: no, everyone disagreed with me
[19:30:18] binTravkin says: no
[19:30:20] Impaler[WrG] says: I thim the magority supports imediate sending
[19:30:27] binTravkin says: yup
[19:30:55] Impaler[WrG] says: ok then lets Do it, who will send?
[19:31:31] PJayTycy says: maybe our official diplomat ?
[19:31:59] Impaler[WrG] says: Is that still me?
[19:32:07] PJayTycy says: I think so
[19:32:15] Lacero votes for Impaler

[19:32:28] Impaler[WrG] says: I thought I had escaped that position.... alass
[19:32:48] Impaler[WrG] says: ok whats their e-mail or can I just PM it?
[19:33:33] binTravkin says: use our team email
[19:34:58] Impaler[WrG] says: which is what again?

[PJayTycy]

btw, we're not finished yet, we're now discussing the subject of the mail...

[Lacero]

After much deliberation we decided on:

"Moscow?"

[binTravkin]

Burn it.

And cheers for your effort.

We have been delayed far too long in our plans by a stubborn resistence by Vox.

We look forward to moving ahead with plans for mutual prosperity and
benefit that were talked about long ago.

We will get a port set up as soon as we can work it in.

Regards
nye for GS

[PJayTycy]

good news !

[Lacero]

No rush on the port guys!

Seriously, if we're heading for mercantilism and they're building a port for trade with us we should warn them before they do it.

[binTravkin]

They don't actually need a port to trade with us, dunno why he added that.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Hes probably remembering earlier conversations we had in which I suggested a coastal city on their west coast as a means of allowing us to trade. But with our scout moving towards the river area to explore the last bit of blackness blocking river based trade it doesn't seem necessary. I could do some more diplo and warn them it may not be necessary and mention the possibility of imminent mercantilism

Also nye was asking if we had yet done a border agreement, should we move ahead with the mountain range border proposal? Given the positive attitude I don't think it would be difficult to get that agreed too.