Gathering Storm Embassy

[N35t0r]

Yeah, we should mention the mountain range as a proposed border and also that we intend to go mercantilist, and that a port city will not be needed when our scout manages to finish exploring. Being able to trade will still be useful, for trading resources.

[binTravkin]

Why we need to mention mercantilism?
We're nowhere near it yet.
We don't even have an open borders agreement with them.
Only thing we can accomplish is have them reply with "well, why do we need open borders then?".

[Kataphraktoi]

Its important not to withhold info from allies, but there is such a thing as saying too much. We shouldnt mention mercantalism at all.

[N35t0r]

hmm.. anyone know where I can find an image of the tech tree?


Also, I'd suppose mercantilism affects them quite a bit for them to be slightly pissed if we just switch from one day to the next...

[binTravkin]

Well, their refusal to scout that last bit and open routes with us also affects us quite a bit.

Techs: ingame and http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/#Techs

[N35t0r]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Well, their refusal to scout that last bit and open routes with us also affects us quite a bit.

Well, they never said they would. if they had, and didn't, we'd be pissed, right? Or if they had founded judaism the turn before we did, not telling us they were researching for it...

they were also in a war until last turn, it's not exactly odd if they lacked a spare unit to do so.

[binTravkin]

No, they didn't lack a unit.
A GS scout is sitting a couple of moves from opening routes.
They also said they will do it 'once they have a unit to spare' and 'as soon as possible', neither of which is true.

[N35t0r]

They might have been using that scout in the war.

[binTravkin]

The scout was nowhere near the war zone and was sitting there fortified when we arrived and while we passed. Now, when we move on, it follows.

[Kataphraktoi]

Obviously they want to keep an eye on our units just in case

[Impaler[WrG]]

I did a diplo chat with Blake of Gathering Storm, we discussed a number of topics and the talks had a good positive a productive tone, me and Blake have a common moding background and comroderly. But have no doupt I have no qualms on stabbing him in the back and he will have none with regards to us.

I informed him we would be retreating our troops, he said their had been some worry on their part as to what we would do with them and if they do in fact do go back north it will demonstrate our peacefull intent.

We discussed the border and presented the mountain border, he felt GS should of course have more. We came up with a tenative plan that will involve us splitting the area. GS would get one of the city sites we had planned on the east coast, the southern-most one SE of a cow resource. We may be able to negotiate that spot back. We might also simply impose our desired borders on GS but I would advise against that.

Tech trade plans were fruitful, GS desires a Liberalism bee-line through Paper and Education. They have raging hard-on for our Civil-Service and they had expected to trade Philosophy for it. I told him this was probably a no-deal for us as we had no use for Philo, we would rather take Construction and credit. I asked and he said GS would be open to researching Feudalism for us. My thoughts were along the lines of us doing Paper, GS doing Feudal, cross-trading we continue onto Guilds, GS continues to Liberalism and gifts us something to compensate us for facilitating the bee-line. We've discussed pushing towards Steel and massive navel dominance. Another option that occurred to me, Theology, Divine-Right, Nationalism. The main point is to grab wonders and extra-religions on that path.

[PJayTycy]

Seems like a good chat. Do you have the log somewhere?

[binTravkin]

We should seek not to reveal too much information in our chats.
I think we will need to accept Philo - CS swap, if they propose, since they've accepted everything we proposed until now.

Anyways, their Liberalism b-line is hinting at Cultural victory as well as grabbing of multiple religions.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Cultural Victory (from what I've heard) is something that must be aimed at for a LONG time and they have done nothing as of yet to move towards it, they have conquered one holy city and are possibly going to found another, that only gives them two religions. Christianity and Islam remain to be founded and the teams on the other continent would have a strong incentive to found some of those. If they do this Liberalism b-line and we continue on towards Guilds theirs a good change the they will be founded over their.

Thus I can't see a viable cultural victory for GS with only two religions under its control and no cultural infrastructure yet created. Were in a far better position to push for Cultural victory as our capitol is already the most cultured city on earth and we can easily grab additional religions if we prioritize them.

I feel that for the present age we should seek to cooperate with GS until our continent is sufficiently far ahead of the other continent that we need no longer fear a 3-way alliance against us. At that point the only thing that could stop us would be a 4 way alliance for GS and the entire other continent. That will be rectified by eliminating one of the two halves leaving us undisputed hegemon.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Impaler[WrG] : So how much to you follow the Democracy game? I keep active in it as its my only active civing right now
Blake Walsh : I'm semi-active
Blake Walsh : In truth I'm a bit less active as I could be, because they'd easily let me do ALL the strategy
Impaler[WrG] : yes I bet they would :P
Impaler[WrG] : we've made extensive use of some of your write-ups by the way
Blake Walsh : Heh, that's what they're there for.
Impaler[WrG] : I'd start going into some official Diplo if your up for it
Blake Walsh : Mmm?
Impaler[WrG] : I am my teams official Diplomate
Impaler[WrG] : Is nye still doing that for you?
Blake Walsh : Yes
Blake Walsh : I think anyway
Blake Walsh : I'm not a diplomat but I do know how to do diplomacy and I'm sure they wouldn't mind if I do some .
Blake Walsh : I've thought of offering to be the diplomat actually but I'm lazy :P
Impaler[WrG] : well he'd mentioned the need for a border agreement between us
Impaler[WrG] : do you guys have a proposal or should we present a proposal first
Blake Walsh : You are welcome to present a proposal
Impaler[WrG] : btw did you guys have any border agreement with Nanas?
Blake Walsh : Well, we certainly considered everything up to splitsville to be ours, but we made no formal agreement.
Impaler[WrG] sent file "border1.jpg" to members of this chat
Impaler[WrG] : this border focuses on the natural barriar of the mountain range as you can see
Blake Walsh : Where is the nearest AC city?
Impaler[WrG] : The conquored Banana cities
Blake Walsh : I'm pretty sure that the sentiment in GS is that we want to race you for territory, with the expectation that both teams will make unreasonably greedy border proposals
Impaler[WrG] : I think we would prefer to avoid that kind of race, it can lead to animosity
Impaler[WrG] : we know were not in a position to use much of that southern isthums for a while but we can make good use of the coastal land with the Collosus
Impaler[WrG] : Also we've walked through the area and cleared it of barbarians on our way south.
Blake Walsh : My connection is flaky
Impaler[WrG] : It seems so
Impaler[WrG] : you get my last 3 messages?
Blake Walsh : Yes
Blake Walsh : GS is aware that a land grab could lead to animosity, but perhaps a border agreement made prematurely could create more, at least for whatever team ends up feeling they got the short end of the stick
Impaler[WrG] : It would seem to me that their is sufficient exploration now to see what everyone is getting and their need not be any short end
Impaler[WrG] : If you recognize the former Banana territory as ours and we recognize as everything south of the mountain range as yours the area under contention is actualy very small
Blake Walsh : Right
Impaler[WrG] : you have maps up to the southern edge of splitsville yes?
Blake Walsh : We have the area fully mapped
Impaler[WrG] : ok then perhaps a mutualy planned city placement can be done
Blake Walsh : We would be amendable to that
Impaler[WrG] : I see two, possibly three city locations in that area that look like they could go either way
Impaler[WrG] : one NW of the Horse on the west coast
Impaler[WrG] : and one NE of the cow? on the east coast
Impaler[WrG] : possibly another on the west coast north of ware Moscow was
Impaler[WrG] : no East I mean
Blake Walsh : So AC would be amendable to dividing that cluster of 5 resources roughly evenly between our teams?
Impaler[WrG] : witch 5 is that again (people didn't turn onthe highlights for my map)
Blake Walsh : 1 horse 1 cow 2 bananas 1 ivory
Impaler[WrG] : yes that sounds about right
Blake Walsh : It does seem like the way, which would seem non-greedy to both teams.
Impaler[WrG] : perhapse if we took the west coast location and GS the East that would give us a good split
Impaler[WrG] : we would agree not to try to culture push from the cities ofcorse
Blake Walsh : Naturally. We'd probably want some kind of culture agreement.
Impaler[WrG] : as time tends to be the most important factor we should build at roughly the same time and use minimal cultural production nessary to get the fat cross
Blake Walsh : Indeed.
Impaler[WrG] : well I'll send this on to my team
Impaler[WrG] : I suspect some will want to maintain the mountain range as the border though so I cant offer this as an official position
Blake Walsh : Well, it's much the same sentiment at GS, just moving the border to above that cluster of resources .
Blake Walsh : So... lets see if we can meet in the middle.
Impaler[WrG] : If its resorces that are important in your view we can agree to long term leases and the like on them
Blake Walsh : The grassland has significant value for cottages and the food makes for strong cities, and I think that's the primary value of that area.
Impaler[WrG] : Our concern is more towards the creation of coastal commerce generationg cities, the resorces serve mainly to facilitate the gowth of the cities
Blake Walsh : Yes, it's a commercially valuable area.
Impaler[WrG] : Yes my point was simply that obtaining Bananas and Ivory arn't major drivers for us
Blake Walsh : Neither for us, we would of course like a real banana patch just for sentimental value, but we'll have the secure ivory behind the mountains anyway.
Impaler[WrG] : likewise with us
Impaler[WrG] : we'll begin withdrawing our forces next turn btw
Blake Walsh : Some people in GS who don't entirely trust AC will be happy to hear that .
Impaler[WrG] : the scout were planning on moving south west in hopes of establishing a river based trade route with you
Blake Walsh : I'm not one of those people, incidently . I think our teams will work great together.
Impaler[WrG] : so long as the benifits of coperation are reaped (primarily in the form of tech trades) peace tends to be favored my the bulk of the community
Blake Walsh : Peace really, is irresitable, I feel .
Impaler[WrG] : trade will add yet another benifit
Blake Walsh : Indeed, that is the primary benefit of peace.
Blake Walsh : What's not to like about doubling our research speed
Impaler[WrG] : nye had mentioned building a port city which wont be nessary if this scout can link up a river route
Impaler[WrG] : so you could save yourself a city spot, I thin 3 more turns should be enough
Blake Walsh : Yes, I think that when you scout that area the rivers should hook us up
Impaler[WrG] : the river flows SW out of your territory I belive and the scouts just rounding the southern end of your border
Blake Walsh : Yes that's right
Blake Walsh : There
Blake Walsh : Oh I was going to say there's the other river but it's iced over
Impaler[WrG] : Your currently researching Phillosophy right?
Blake Walsh : Right
Impaler[WrG] : were on Optics I belive
Blake Walsh : Mkay.
Impaler[WrG] : I assume compass and optics arn't much use too you?
Impaler[WrG] : I'm wondering whats the next trade we can swing?
Blake Walsh : I suppose... that we wouldn't really bother getting them in any hurry, no.
Blake Walsh : CS for Philo?
Impaler[WrG] : Philosohpy dosn't appeal to us, the main benifit is religion which you will have and the wonder (which we normaly love) is an especialy suckey one
Blake Walsh : So you aren't interested in pacifism?
Impaler[WrG] : no Organized Religion is better
Impaler[WrG] : especialy with all the new infastructure we will need as we expand
Blake Walsh : Okay... GS might be kinda annoyed that you wont make that trdae . We thought you would, otherwise we'd probably have insisted on researching CS because we want it ASAP, of course.
Impaler[WrG] : what els do you have that we dont have?
Blake Walsh : Um, I think we still have construction over you
Impaler[WrG] : whats that do again, besides cats? Aquaducts?
Blake Walsh : Catas aquas colos elephants, engineering pre-req
Impaler[WrG] : humm not much need for any of that stuff right now
Impaler[WrG] : maybe aquaducts if we wanted to do Hanging Gardens
Impaler[WrG] : btw are you planning to do HG?
Blake Walsh : I don't believe so
Blake Walsh : we're really set up for whipping and commerce, not raw hammers
Impaler[WrG] : yea weve noticed your raw hammers are very low, you whent all cottages didn't you
Blake Walsh : Floodplains, what else? heh.
Impaler[WrG] : were almost completly townless, all our commerce is coastal
Impaler[WrG] : well what do you plan after Philosophy?
Blake Walsh : There's only one tech which matters: CS.
Impaler[WrG] : were thinking of either moving further along in navel oriented techs or Fudalism
Impaler[WrG] : well assuming we trade the CS what would you research next?
Blake Walsh : That's a good question
Blake Walsh : Probably paper but that's just off the top of my head
Impaler[WrG] : theirs also Banking which has gotten a lot of desirability in our plannings
Blake Walsh : Yeah the question is really education vs banking
Impaler[WrG] : then PP ofcourse
Impaler[WrG] : really I'd think PP with its imediate rewards would be more desirable then education which requires a building to get roughly the same thing
Blake Walsh : Except for liberalism :O
Impaler[WrG] : oh yes for got old Lib
Blake Walsh : The only other tech worth mentioning is Music, for the free GA... but that would be pretty worthless
Impaler[WrG] : yea
Impaler[WrG] : well when we finish Optics we could go right into paper too
Impaler[WrG] : or together we could push towards Nationalism but that seems too early
Impaler[WrG] : Theirs also Theology-> Divine right to consider
Blake Walsh : Do you think that AC could be ammendable to "gifting" GS Civil Service, so we can research faster and pay you back sooner? It would certainly open up new and more attractive research options for trade.
Impaler[WrG] : possibly though I think a asmetric trade for CS say Construction might be more doable then an out right gift
Blake Walsh : That would work too
Impaler[WrG] : whats the cost different between them?
Blake Walsh : Con is about the value of CS
Blake Walsh : half
Impaler[WrG] : and Philo is about the same as CS?
Blake Walsh : exactly the same
Impaler[WrG] : yes I think we'd be more interested in getting Construction and getting an IOU then in Philosophy
Blake Walsh : Okay
Impaler[WrG] : I can see some desire to get a piece of the pie though if we facilitate your bee-line to Liberalism
Blake Walsh : Indeed, that would be reasonable.
Blake Walsh : If it's a joint effort to some degree, the rewads should be shared to some degree.
Impaler[WrG] : what do you think you'd take as the freebee?
Blake Walsh : No idea.
Impaler[WrG] : Are you getting close to any Great People?
Blake Walsh : Not really, we plan to switch to pacifism and then go crazy
Impaler[WrG] : A Prophet could grap Theology (about the only thing their good for)
Blake Walsh : I don't think we'll want more religion. We have two already. Or iwll have.
Blake Walsh : We'll be banging out scientists and if we get prophets, they'll go to shrines
Impaler[WrG] : its allso a means to Paper though
Blake Walsh : We've got no wonders so we can be choosy about what we generate
Blake Walsh : But as I said, we insist on having CS so it's moot
Impaler[WrG] : yes the Wonders do produce a Crap-shoot on the Great people, so far we've gotten usefull guys
Impaler[WrG] : I could see us going Theology, Divine Right, Nationalism to grab up Wonders
Impaler[WrG] : lots of goodies on that path
Blake Walsh : Divine Right is like tits on a bull... IMHO
Blake Walsh : Unless AC is actually on some crusade to build all the wonders
Impaler[WrG] : Guilds requires Fudalism which is kind BLA
Blake Walsh : Yeah, of some use to GS thanks to Serfdom (yay spiritual)
Impaler[WrG] : Well I am on a Crusade to get AC on such a Crusade
Blake Walsh : Hahah
Impaler[WrG] : It was my Idea to go for the Oracle
Blake Walsh : If you want us to research Fedualism I'm sure we could
Blake Walsh : Poor feudalism never gets spelled correctly
Impaler[WrG] : BinTravkin did a lot of the math but I did a lot of the pushing for the heavy wonder based strategies
Impaler[WrG] : yes if you did Fudalism that would be good :P
Blake Walsh : Frankly I'd trust BT's maths, but if you want to pursue wonders then it would certainly make for an entertaining game.
Blake Walsh : We could make sure not to build any so you don't have to invade us to complete the collection (rofl)
Impaler[WrG] : hahaha
Impaler[WrG] : Sarantium is already marked
Blake Walsh : Okay lets wrap this up, is there anything else to talk about?
Impaler[WrG] : don't know, have any ideas?
Blake Walsh : I think we've got enough to bring back to our teams... borders, techs
Impaler[WrG] : all rather speculative still ofcourse
Blake Walsh : Yes, it needs to be discussed in depth
Impaler[WrG] : We need to pound out some long term stuff on our side
Blake Walsh : Yes, GS has been a bit sleepy lately... because the choke/war just has been going for so long. We're probably about ready to wake up and get doing hard strategy.
Impaler[WrG] : overall how do you forsee the mid game developing
Blake Walsh : expansion, lots of expansion
Impaler[WrG] : we will be seeing cross continental contact soon and possibly the elimination of one of the teams on the other continent
Impaler[WrG] : yes expantion goes without saying :P
Impaler[WrG] : And it will go fast too, the turns averaged something like 3 days this month
Blake Walsh : Mmm
Blake Walsh : Whent he focus is economics the turns tend to go quickly
Impaler[WrG] : but the other continent is in a war and they haven't slowed down either
Blake Walsh : Depends on the type of war
Impaler[WrG] : or do you think they have stalemated?