Realms Beyond's History of the Demogame

[regoarrarr]

I seem to recall us actively trying to get Imperio to gift you Feudalism, but (obviously) they never did

[darrelljs]

Your civ walkthrough only made 7 parts so I guess that's a new record for length .

I would participate in another demogame hosted at Apolyton. Nothing that went wrong is beyond repair, given the right person in charge (e.g. Krill). I think the larger problem is getting enough teams, which would be far easier to do at civfanatics.

Darrell

[Zeviz]

Thanks for the excellent game report.

I also wouldn't rule out participating in another Apolyton game if they fixed the problems. Getting an admin like Krill, who cares about the game, getting an experienced designer to make the map, requiring every team to start with at least 3 turnplayers, and making a rule about opening the forums after the game ends should be enough to make the next game less frustrating. (There are two reasons opening forums is important: the obvious reason is sharing the full game experience and learning from each other's discoveries and mistakes. The second reason is that it would discourage excessively deceptive diplomacy, because all teams would know that their machinations will be revealed in the end.)

[regoarrarr]

Third reason - it would discourage players that do not want their forums opened from playing, which is good because it seems that those people have a high correlation with people that I don't really want to play with.

[MyOtherCar]

Never let it be said I don't respond to requests.

Part Twelve: Bananarama
Part Thirteen: The End?

And that's it, finally got this thing done. It was a lot of work, but I'm happy with how it turned out. If anyone has something they would like to add, let me know and I can probably squeeze it in.

Hat's off to you Sullla, a magnificent writeup!
And once again thanks to the rest of the team, I really enjoyed being part of the team, even if I was mostly lurking. I think my major contribution, apart from trying my hand at some excel-sheet for MM-ing the GT ( at which others where far more proficient!) was composing the Spanish poem for Naldo.

[timmy827]

Terrific work, as expected. My main suggestion is to put in something about Imperio largely checking out after the first move of Backstab. Naldo's frustration is somewhat understandable. More importantly, I think this affected the balance between us and PAL almost as much as the boating of The Warning; once the backstab worked Imperio was surely doomed, but we took them out much more quickly and painlessly than we should have. It will also serve as an interesting contrast to Templars, where you properly credit them with making things as hard as they could (after the game-long ineptness) by drafting as many macemen as possible

[Krill]

Something to be asked, because I've been wondering about it alot the past year.

The Spanish speakers have entered teams at least twice to my knowledge in demogames, and each time have always massively affected diplomacy due to problems with communication. Is it better that foreign language teams take part in demogames, increasing the player base, or should they be cisallowed and all teams be forced to communicate in one language, so that all teams are kept equal? (consider as game balance argument)

[Zeviz]

Something to be asked, because I've been wondering about it alot the past year.

The Spanish speakers have entered teams at least twice to my knowledge in demogames, and each time have always massively affected diplomacy due to problems with communication. Is it better that foreign language teams take part in demogames, increasing the player base, or should they be cisallowed and all teams be forced to communicate in one language, so that all teams are kept equal? (consider as game balance argument)

I think the problem isn't the language, but the team. Rabbit diplomacy was just as unreliable as Imperio's, and Rabbits are an English-speaking team. And Imperio's downfall came not from lack of communication, but from trying to play all sides, which had nothing to do with them being a Spanish-speaking team. With modern automatic translation tools, PAL-level of communication (short and to-the-point messages) can be maintained even with people who don't know any English. And this level is all you need for successful diplomacy. So I wouldn't say that language is a problem.

[darrelljs]

I agree 100% with Zeviz.

Darrell

[MyOtherCar]

Me and Babelfish also agree with Zeviz and darreljs (50% each )

[Chuckman]

Kudos to Realms Beyond. Your level of detail and thoroughness is astounding. You played the best. You minimized the negative. You maximized opportunities. Your cloak and dagger work leave me awed. Sulla's history of the game is tremendous. Definitely first rate all around.

[thekaje]

Mostly-neutral observer partial to the RB team here. (Big fan of and lots of respect for all the work you guys do, and really like Sirian and Sullla's sites.)

I really enjoyed this game! Well-played by RB. Mind-blowing how deep you guys dug.

You definitely didn't have the moral high ground with the Imperio thing, though. Sorry. That was two-faced, slimy, and low. (I read the original diplomacy thread, too -- pretty clear what your intentions were, even as you deluded yourselves as to what was ethical and who was "in the right".)

As many said, it would have been strategically stupid to reveal to Imperio that you were not happy with the peace deal or believed it to be invalid because you didn't get Gunpowder. However, it would have been the stand-up thing to do to let them know that the treaty was not in effect. What you did might have won you the game, it's true, but you did it in a cheap and slimy way.

There is no way to justify what you did ethically, and I think you should just own up to that like big boys. Especially because I'm not sure how much it matters -- you're by far the better players and good bunch of folks.

[Dreylin]

Well I'm finally catching back up with (the remains of) the game after my vacation. Sad to see that it ended with a bit of a whimper, but can't knock having been part of such an amazing team.

Thanks Sullla for the great write-up, it was fun to relive all the moments. I even went through the Aidun section remembering what was in store for me ... except I'd forgotten how his third or fourth message had made my eyes bleed the first time - and did so again! (and on a personal note: yay, I had a post quoted! )

[ecawilson]

I am not sure that this is the thread to discuss this in, nor the forum, probably… but the question was brought up here, and responded to here.

Is it better that foreign language teams take part in demogames, increasing the player base, or should they be cisallowed and all teams be forced to communicate in one language, so that all teams are kept equal?

I agree in principle with the answer of Zeviz, darrelljs, and MyOtherCar, but not for the same reasons.

There were no Spanish speakers on the Templar team. I was the third team member assigned to their team, because the previous two had had negligible success. Most of the problem was, as Zeviz inferred, was that they just hadn’t communicated as often. After reading the Imperio forum, I am still unclear if this had been a tactic or a lack of activity. And yes, it was obvious that they were trying to play both sides, even during the game, but that tactic could be played successfully, and is in real life (African or Middle Eastern countries during the Cold War playing the U.S.S.R. and the U.S.). And, yes, the “PAL-level of communication” could theoretically be done through machine translations.

And, it is very important to me personally that people of all languages and countries of origin have equal to chance to play in something like this. But that is only a personal value, however strong, and I will not presume that it could be imposed by a minority.


HOWEVER, the reason that I feel it is important to respond to this is as follows: Machine translators are NOT sufficient to bridge a language gap. I don’t know about Naldo’s messages, and I know that Astro and some others on the roster have fluent English, but whenever X_MiTH_X sent a letter in English, it was incomprehensible. Now, I like Mith, and he and I got along quite well, and I hope that he does not take offense, but it was important that he send in Spanish. Also, his Spanish is not simple. He is obviously educated, and uses words that confuse a machine translator (Beta had the same problem from our side, I think). Oft times, babelfish, google, et al. would give the opposite meaning as his intent. Having studied translation at the university, and being bi-lingual myself, I offer the testimony that machine translators can not be depended upon.

Could we limit non-English speakers to short messages? That would be patently unfair. Relationship building is the reason some people participate in demogames. And some people (right or wrong) do not agree to alliances or long-term agreements without having a relationship, or at least the feeling that trust is possible. Trust does not come without communication. The corollary, that mistrust comes through lack of communication, seems to fit the evidence we have from this game.

For the Templars to begin communication with Imperio, it required quite a bit of work on my part. It was like a part time job. Knowing no Spanish, I was continuously looking in multiple dictionaries, researching grammar texts, and discussing the letters with other (non-civ playing) translators. My return letters were written very carefully, not simply to ask much while saying little, but also so that the English was simple. I did a very good job, and Imperio trusted the Templars by the time I left. I do wonder if the war had gone differently (not necessarily successfully) if there had been any coordination at all between allies before it started. But that is a hypothetical scenario, and I will never know.

As far as I can tell, no other team made the effort to read their correspondence in Spanish. They all required that Imperio write in English. It is therefore logical that Imperio allied with the Templars. Even though the Templars were 1) by many accounts the weakest team at the time, and 2) the greatest competition for land and resources (other than the copper, which could have been obtained diplomatically had they the option and was unnecessary for their axemen anyway), Imperio was very eager to ally with the Templars. As far as I could tell, they never even considered anyone else. Perhaps a poor tactical move on their part, but the language barrier prevented them from making any other decision.

Therefore, my position is that “foreign language teams” should and must be allowed position in a demogame, and it must be known that they are at a disadvantage. I would never suggest that this disadvantage be ‘made up’ in any way, but that all teams, especially the non-English speakers (if English happens to be the dominant diplomatic language) themselves, should know that they start behind.

EDIT: Sorry this was so long, but my teammates will attest that this is actually one of my shorter posts...

[sunrise089]

Thanks for your thought ecawilson. One thing: RB at many occasions told Imperio they were free to respond in Spanish.