Tech Discussion

[sooooo]

I guess it might be worth discussing the next technologies that we want. I think our first priority is gunpowder and our second priority is astronomy. We also need to get optics. Despite obsoleting the colossus, we are in desperate need of astronomy to get our trade routes back and the observatories are good too. Also it is a vital military tech that we need to get before Imperio do. I hope they are not working on it right now.

All of this needs to be discussed with banana. I wonder if they could be persuaded to go for gunpowder after they finish guilds. If they do, then that would allow us to get started on optics and astronomy. It may require some strong persuasion, since they expressed a desire for paper next. However, we can maybe convince them that we can send them screenshots on anything we can see, which is most of the map. I don't think paper is that valuable a tech for us. I don't see education as a priority for us either, since universities are comparable with observatories and liberalism is a lost cause. We would miss out on Oxford at Airstrip One for a while, but I don't see us diverting 5 other cities to building universtities when we are in a war. Hopefully we can persuade banana that astrononomy is better than education too.

Unfortunately, astronomy is lower on the great scientist list than paper or education. On the bright side, we could bulb optics if we don't get paper. It's something to think about. I think it would repay us a lot of commerce to get astronomy 6-7 turns quicker by bulbing optics. Plan would be to run 0% science for the 5-7 turns between us getting nationalism and the next great person being born. Or less if we hire more scientists. Then bulb optics and make an astronomy run. Of course there's always the possibility of getting it from PAL too. We could run the "now you've circumnavigated, you don't need optics any more do you?".

[Sullla]

While Astronomy is indeed a likely desired tech, I'll point out that we would also regain our intercontinental trade routes simply by capturing or razing Chichen Itza. That's probably a ways off though, since our attack plans will likely go through Templars first.

It would be nice to grab the free Great Merchant at Economics to save for a possible corporation later on, but that's not likely to happen at this point. PAL will almost certainly get there first. Gunpowder is definitely our next priority.

[sooooo]

Well I'm hoping to persuade banana to research gunpowder for us. They finish guilds soon and can get it sooner than we can.

The question is: paper+education or optics+astronomy first. Clearly we need both, but I think astronomy is better. Even if we can get our trade routes back by razing Chichen Itza and they don't settle another city on the north coast, imagine what happens if imperio get astronomy and build some boats before we do. All of our fishing villages become food-less from the pillaging. Not only that but we have to put credible defenders in all of them. Currently most of them are unoccupied! We need naval domination.

[mostly-harmless]

While Astronomy is indeed a likely desired tech, I'll point out that we would also regain our intercontinental trade routes simply by capturing or razing Chichen Itza.

That's not the case as the closed borders with PAL prevent access to Rabbits and Banana.

Unless we can re-negotiate OB with PAL again, we will have to go through Jerusalem and Acre most likely, to get a clear route to Banana and have unfogged a route to Rabbits as well (through maptrading with Banana, as our Galley cannot traverse PAL's waters.)

mh

[regoarrarr]

I lean towards Astronomy rather than Paper / Edu

[sunrise089]

Astro seems clearly better than Edu to me.

[T-hawk]

Agreed on Astronomy. Observatories do the same thing as universities, cheaper. And we don't care about the techs beyond Education at the moment: Liberalism doesn't help us, Economics needs a string of other prereqs, and Gunpowder will be reached via Guilds.

[Swiss Pauli]

In light of Banana going for Banking, and the possibility of us running Mercantilism, I think we should reconsider our tech path.

The current plan has us bulbing Optics, then researching Astronomy for trade routes and naval security.

I'd propose learning Paper, part-bulbing Education (2574) whilst researching Printing Press (2288 and worth at least 11 cpt by the time we get it) then finishing Edu (to trade to Banana). Then Replaceable Parts (2574) to allow Rifling (3574), total 11'010 beakers.

Banana goes Banking (1001), Gunpowder (1716), Astronomy (2860), Chemistry (2574), and Military Science (2860). This adds up to 11'011 beakers.

The most obvious, short-term benefit for us of changing plan is getting several hundred more beakers from our lightbulb.

We would still need to backfill Optics in order to take Astro from Banana, but it gives us the option to delay getting Astro until it suits us/we need it for military reasons, as we're getting around 8cpt from Colossus coast at the moment. Imperio hasn't built a single naval unit, and I find it unlikely that'll they'll have an epiphany and discover the joys of boating, even if they do get Astro sooner than we do.

We need to convince Banana, of course, but getting him to go Merc shouldn't be too hard as he's running REP. And I think the techs have a decent balance between economic and military uses, so I reckon we could convince him to make this long-term commitment (as he's down beakers until Rifling for Mil Sci).

What do you guys think?

[ruff_hi]

We have another option regarding HOW to tech ...

we save money while Banana techs A, gifts to us
banana saves money while we tech B, gifts to Banana
we save money while Banana techs C, gifts to us
banana saves money while we tech D, gifts to Banana

This way, we can progress down a certain line (ie rifling) at max speed

[sunrise089]

Is that quicker Ruff?

[sooooo]

I disagree, I think astronomy is vital to our security. Imagine what happens if Imperio go too many turns of having astronomy unaposed. All of our coastal cities would be in danger and we'd have to have a home defence force to guard against invasion. All of our seafood is useless. They haven't built naval units yet because they only have parity and the ones they could build are a bit rubbish. But if they get astronomy first it's a no-brainer for them to build galleons and frigates.

Plus we need naval superiority against PAL. When PAL get astonomy I expect them to look for opportunities to declare war and harass our western coast.

[ruff_hi]

Is that quicker Ruff?

Quicker to get all techs - probably the same. Quicker to key techs that are in a chain - most certainly.

Consider that we want tech D, but it is dependent on Tech C, which is dependent on tech B, etc. For us to get to D by ourselves, we will have to run some turns at 0% ... however, if Banana techs B while we are running 0%, gift the tech to us and then we go 100% on C it is as if we teched B ourselves while we were running 0%. That has to be quicker ... doesn't it?

[sunrise089]

I think Swiss does make a good point that if Mercantilism really is better than Astro-trade-routes then it does seem to take some of the value away from Astro.

However, I think I still favor Soooo's way of thinking. First, Astro is better militarily than the MilScience/Chemistry pair, and second we need to back-fill in Optics anyways.

however, if Banana techs B while we are running 0%, gift the tech to us and then we go 100% on C it is as if we teched B ourselves while we were running 0%. That has to be quicker ... doesn't it?

I would think the quickest way would be for us to build science multiplying buildings and them gold multiplying buildings and them permanently run 0% science and us 100%

[ruff_hi]

I would think the quickest way would be for us to build science multiplying buildings and them gold multiplying buildings and them permanently run 0% science and us 100%

Yes - I thought of that too - but would the be that willing to become such closely linked partners?

[Swiss Pauli]

I disagree, I think astronomy is vital to our security. Imagine what happens if Imperio go too many turns of having astronomy unaposed. All of our coastal cities would be in danger and we'd have to have a home defence force to guard against invasion. All of our seafood is useless. They haven't built naval units yet because they only have parity and the ones they could build are a bit rubbish. But if they get astronomy first it's a no-brainer for them to build galleons and frigates.

Plus we need naval superiority against PAL. When PAL get astonomy I expect them to look for opportunities to declare war and harass our western coast.

I think you're over-estimating Imperio's interest in naval matters: have we even seen so much as an exploring workboat from them? They've had Optics for a while, but have we seen a caravel going for circumnavigation? Let's not forget that they will have to sacrifice land units to train Galleons, and this is a risk they may not be willing to take.

Astro only allows Galleons, not Frigates. The latter are enabled by the addition of Chemistry, and I would suggest that it's more important that we're first to have both of these techs than just to have Astro. Frigates own the seas, Galleons can be neutralised by swarms of Caravels. I think we should backfill Optics when we see Imperio or PAL has Astro.

Also, our tech pace is going to crash when we adopt Nationalism: we may well be quicker to Astro if we have Banana research it for us. (It would be great if one of our micro experts can check the impact of losing BUR.) Getting 500 or so extra beakers from our next Scientist is something we can't afford to dismiss.

As to PAL, they're a long way away (even within the circumnavigation bonus): it'd take around 10 turns for a Galleon from Alex to reach Red Herring, and if they whip one from Giza, then Banana will be able to see it from Omni Point and warn us of the threat 5-6 turns ahead of time.