Tech Discussion

[sooooo]

The proposed philo for engineering deal from PAL was called off by them. We need a new plan.

It is turn 128 and our scientist is due T131. With the loss of philo, I think we should research drama (make it last 3 turns) then lightbulb philosophy and get researching nationalism.

[mostly-harmless]

Sounds like a plan, sooooo. I would wait for a Templar reply this turn. (if they delay their response, than no dice, we go for Drama ourselves).

mh

[T-hawk]

Drama now, Philo bulb, research Nationalism seems quite obvious to me too. Drafting does work for military in and of itself even before we get to Gunpowder. Maces aren't the most exciting draftees, but the option should give us all but immunity to getting conquered.

[ruff_hi]

and we can knock out the Taj while we tech towards gunpowder.

[mostly-harmless]

What is the reasoning to drag out Drama to 3 turns? Don't we want to start our theaters for Globe asap?

mh

[T-hawk]

The reasoning is to wait one turn to see if we can pry Drama loose in a trade. I think that's unlikely, though, and we should just start Drama now.

Good point Ruff, yes the Taj Mahal is another great reason to bulb Philosophy and start on Nationalism right away! We should start planning now for which city to do it -- over in the City Planning thread.

[ruff_hi]

I think sooooo is thinking of lining the start of our next tech with the Great Scientist so we don't waste any beakers into philo. Lets just knock it out and park our extra beakers into something else that we want to research (on the gunpowder line - said without actually looking at the game and assuming there is something there that we need).

[ruff_hi]

Good point Ruff, yes the Taj Mahal is another great reason to bulb Philosophy and start on Nationalism right away! We should start planning now for which city to do it -- over in the City Planning thread.

Actually, the Taj is 700 (standard) hammers that we will not put into Op Bloodbath. Can we afford that? Will the payback be worth while?

[T-hawk]

Taj is easily worthwhile. Cost is 311 base hammers assuming a forge. The Golden Age payoff is something like 30 hammer tiles (including city centers and Saxon's Moai tiles) x 8 turns = 240 base hammers, plus ~240 commerce too, plus a turn saved in anarchy to Nationhood, plus a religion and religious civic for free.

[sooooo]

I doubt we actually want to start any theatres in 2 turns and not 3, so stretching Drama to 3 turns stops us wasting the beakers we get at 0%. Also if by some miracle we can get drama from templars then it's worth spending a turn at 0%. Other option is to hire 2 scientists at A1 to get the GS a turn sooner, but I don't see the benefit of that as it just delays the epic and our next GP.

[Sullla]

Well, this certainly isn't a bad plan, but... I think that lightbulbing Philosophy is a total waste of a Great Scientist. Look at it this way:

- Philosophy tech costs ~1100 beakers, while full beaker value for a Great Scientist on Normal speed is more like 1800. On face value, we're already losing out on quite a bit of the benefit.

- Philosophy tech is already know by two civs (PAL and Banana), thus we get a 10% research boost.

- Philosophy tech further has two pre-reqs, Code of Laws and Drama, both of which we plan to research (or maybe trade of, with Drama) before going after Philosophy. We thus get another 40% beaker boost when researching Philosophy.

Let's look at that total and think about what it would cost to research Philosophy ourselves then. At 100% science, we were pulling in about 220 beakers/turn. Assuming no growth whatsoever (which is already pessimistic as we hook up dyes and silks resources), that number becomes:

220 * (1.1) = 242 * 1.4 = 338 beakers/turn

Which is just barely more than 3 turns of research! Even factoring in the need to run two turns of pure cash, that's 5 or 6 turns total, at best. Yes, I'm aware of the value of getting a quick start on Nationalism tech, but really... this feels like a waste to me. We can spend that Great Scientist in better ways, IMO. I think we'd do better creating another Academy than lightbulbing for such minimum benefit.

But that's just my take...

[sooooo]

I guess that's a good point. Hmm. We'll have to see what templars say to our trade for Drama.

[sunrise089]

I agree Taj is worth it, because as you know I'm in the pro-Theology camp. A free golden age makes the religion switch that much easier.

[Zeviz]

I agree with Sulla's reasoning. So my suggestion would be:
1. Park on Philosophy at 0% while negotiating about Drama.
2. Use GS for Academy.
3. If negotiations fail after 3 or 4 turns, start Drama full speed, then Philosophy, then Nationalism.

[T-hawk]

220 * (1.1) = 242 * 1.4 = 338 beakers/turn

Which is just barely more than 3 turns of research! Even factoring in the need to run two turns of pure cash, that's 5 or 6 turns total, at best.

Let's not dismiss those cash turns just because it makes your argument look good. Please use our actual sustainable research rate and not a fictional 100% rate.

Also, let's not overestimate the Academy in Pink. In general, there is a huge dropoff between a capital academy and a second academy. The capital boasts older and more mature cottages, 8 extra commerce from the Palace itself (equivalent to 2 extra free villages), preferential trade routes, and all multiplied with Bureaucracy. A second academy typically is worth less than half of the first.

But that all said, I think you're still right. The Academy in Pink will produce about 15 beakers per turn at a sustainable research rate, which also gets the prereq and devaluation bonuses. It'll take about 20 turns for this academy to catch up to the lightbulb. Collecting all the techs for Operation Bloodbath is still 20 turns away, so the academy gets there just as fast, and future research after that point is gravy.

Zeviz's plan says the same thing much more succinctly.