Tech Discussion

[mostly-harmless]

I don't think that this is a good idea.
Templars already screwed up one tech deal (triangle research). I have my doubts we will see any good trade happen with Imperio.
Any tech plan based on trades with those two stands on very shaky legs.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

I think you're missing the main point: we will probably have to research Philo ourselves if we are to get to Nationalism ASAP, so any trades we make with Philo are a bonus. PAL has already turned down Eng for Philo, and we're counting on them making a mistake by changing their mind within the next 7 turns. I don't see them being naive/overconfident enough to trade us Philo until they have Education in the bag which I guess will be 15 turns with a bulb, and maybe 25 without.

[sooooo]

I would like to send a message to PAL in a couple of turns, suggesting an engineering for philosophy trade with a promise not to research liberalism.

[darrelljs]

I would like to send a message to PAL in a couple of turns, suggesting an engineering for philosophy trade with a promise not to research liberalism.

Yeah, I agree. I always saw this as the number one option if they didn't agree to the Liberalism pact. We can self research Nationalism. I will argue again for the Guilds path to Nationalism. First, it is beaker cheaper. Second, we can plant another Academy instead of part bulbing Education. Third, it gives us access to Grocers and gets us close to Banks. Fourth, it gives us access to Knights.

Darrell

[Swiss Pauli]

We should send PAL such an email, but let's not count on them believing us. If they see Liberalism as a game defining prize, they may not want to take any risks.

@darrell - I assume you mean the Guilds path to Gunpowder And, as I mentioned above, if we trade Nationalism for Guilds with Banana we tie up all our loose ends.

[darrelljs]

@darrell - I assume you mean the Guilds path to Gunpowder And, as I mentioned above, if we trade Nationalism for Guilds with Banana we tie up all our loose ends.

Yup, I meant Guilds to Gunpower . Guilds is almost half the cost of Nationalism though, is our beaker debt really that great? Guilds + Banking is slightly cheaper than Nationalism, that would be a nice deal.

Darrell

[regoarrarr]

I would also like to send something to PAL with the promise not to go after Liberalism, but if we do, we should say, we won't go after it for a set number of turns (to avoid them sandbagging). We should make it long enough that it clearly shows them we're not going after it now, but short enough that they can't lib->biology or democracy or something.

We should also ask them to explicitly deny it if they aren't interested, so we can get on with our lives

[Zeviz]

I would also vote for Philosophy and promise of no Liberalims to PAL.

What about the idea of Gunpowder to Banana for Guilds? (They research Guilds, give them to us, we research Gunpowder, give it to them.)

[Swiss Pauli]

Yup, I meant Guilds to Gunpower . Guilds is almost half the cost of Nationalism though, is our beaker debt really that great? Guilds + Banking is slightly cheaper than Nationalism, that would be a nice deal.

Darrell

Yes, Nationalism for Guilds is a shade over the 1k beakers we promised Banana.

[Sullla]

Whether we head for Gunpowder via Education or via Guilds in large part will be determined based on what we do with our next Great Scientist. Since this is very much a "tech" matter, let's talk about that right now while we have some down time. For the curious, we pop another Great Scientist out of Airstrip One in a mere 7 turns!

There are essentially three options:

1) Lightbulb a tech, with Philosophy and Education as the next two options.
2) Use for golden age.
3) Play for long-term benefit: Academy or Super-Specialist.

Lightbulbing Education would be the conventional move. However, if we're not planning to go for Liberalism ourselves, there's not much point in doing this. We could just as well trade Nationalism to PAL for Education, and let them research the durned tech. Obviously we're not going to lightbulb Philosophy at this stage. The next tech would be Printing Press, I think, and that doesn't seem like a desirable target either.

I would be against using the Great Scientist for a Golden Age, as we have two other ways to achieve our desired GA: either via Taj Mahal (which we'll stand an excellent chance to get, by beelining Nationalism) or by using our third Great Person for the Golden Age. The third Great Person will follow about 16 turns after the next one, so roughly T155-160. This is about when we'd be wanting to swap civics to Nationhood civic anyway, as well as adopting a religion for Theology purposes. No need to rush ahead with a Golden Age right now, IMO.

If we don't go with either of those options, then we may as well play for the long term and build a second Academy, or use the Scientist as a super-specialist in Airstrip One. From a cursory glance at the math, I think we'd get better value from an Academy in Pink Dot. That city already has three (grasslad river) cottages, can add about four more of them, and will have a dyes plantation up and running soon. We're getting ~20 beakers/turn there right now, so that's an increase of 10 (base) beakers/turn to start, plus a lot more as the city grows and the cottages mature. A super-specialist in Airstrip One won't pay back the same dividends, I believe.

So... thoughts? Is there a better use for our Great Scientist than an Academy?

[sunrise089]

As you guys know, I favor a golden age about 10-15 turns before the start of hostilities with Imperio to enable a cheap swap to Theology. As long as we can commit to this happening via GP 3 or Taj I have no problem using the second scientist for a Pink Dot academy.

[regoarrarr]

I think I support the idea of using the upcoming scientist on an academy or super specialist (subject to some more in-depth number-crunching to decide which).

As for when they come, I am calculating that we'll pop the next scientist on T131 (7 turns), and, if we hire no additional great people, the 3rd in 300 / 16 = 19 turns after that, or T150. We could also hire an engineer, which would mean we'd get one on T145, and another one on T163, as (I think?) I posted in the bloodbath thread.

So we do the academy / super spec on T131, then either golden age (with sci / artist) on T145 or Taj Mahal with an artist, then have another GP on T163 (or maybe later if we de-hire the engineer).

If we can reach consensus on this, I will update our Bloodbath plan

[mostly-harmless]

Academy in the best spot.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

I think the best use for the next GS would be an Academy in Pink.

[Zeviz]

Another vote for Academy in Pink.

When should we contact PAL about Engineering->Phylosophy trade?