Tech Discussion

[mostly-harmless]

I agree with MC after construction.

mh

[regoarrarr]

Okay. I know that I've seen a few ideas tossed out there for a mid-to-long term tech path. I thought it might be good to try and build some consensus here. Obviously when we know what our likely mid-to-long term tech path is, we are focused and can conduct our diplomacy and such based on when we know we're going to reach certain techs, as well as direct our allies to research certain techs to take advantage of advantageous trade agreements.

So. I guess first let's talk short-term. We seem to have a pretty good consensus on the following techs as the next ones to research.

Short-term:
Construction (due in 2 turns - T119)
Calendar (hopefully traded from Banana for Construction)
Metal Casting (either via trade from the Templars or our next tech researched)
Machinery (traded from Banana but I'm not clear for what?)

Long-term:
The most prevalent long-term tech goal that I've seen is getting to Nationalism and Gunpowder, and whipping and whupping Imperio and/or Templars. I've also seen talk of going Paper-Education, potentially taking a flyer at Liberalism, and also taking a flyer at Optics-Astronomy and making use of the Terra continent.

Mid-term:
We have a couple of options after the 4 short-term techs listed.
* Drama / Music, possibly in combination with a trade for one of them from Banana
* Philosophy (via CoL)
* Paper / Education
* Feudalism / Guilds


So... thoughts? I think I'd lean towards prioritizing Nationalism / Gunpowder, and counting on our massive empire size advantage coupled with our prodigious skill to overwhelm the rest of our continent.

Just to followup on Sullla's idea earlier about using the great artist at Music for Nationalism, Divine Right and Theology are both ahead of Nationalism on a GA's preference, so that doesn't seem like it would work.

But let's sketch a tech by tech research / trade plan order out. That will help us do things like prioritize when / how we build the globe theater, how much of a supporting army we need by a specific turn and what kind of diplomatic agreements we do and do not want to sign.

[sooooo]

We can get Calendar and Machinery from Banana. They mentioned they wanted feudalism next, which I think would want to trade for too.

As for philosophy, we will have to wait and see who gets it next. I'm not sure we have enough to trade to PAL for the tech. If we don't, we can lightbulb it.

Drama we would like to trade for but I'm not sure from whom right now. Banana want it but it will take them too long to get calendar, feudalism and drama before we need it. Perhaps we could involve the templars here (yes, I know, I know). It's worth a try. Maybe offer them something like construction for it if they research it for us.

So possibly we could be researching philosophy very soon if that all works out.

[sooooo]

There is a slight issue with the drafting plan - it's painfully obvious. When people see a switch to Nationhood and our score going downwards in civstats 3 times a turn people will realise what's going on and probably make a lot of crossbows to kill our 2XP macemen. It's not like rushing an AI.

[Dreylin]

@reg: We have an agreement in place with Banana for Machinery, and have already fulfilled our side (Mon, Aes & Lit).

When people see a switch to Nationhood and our score going downwards in civstats 3 times a turn people will realise what's going on and probably make a lot of crossbows to kill our 2XP macemen Drill III Oromos.

I thought this was the plan...

[mostly-harmless]

Doh, what Dreylin said. (got beaten by 5 mins)

mh

[Sullla]

If we do manage to land Metal Casting from Templars (as Hercules led me to believe when talking to him last night), then we already have trades in place for the next couple of techs: Machinery from Banana, then Construction for Calendar from Banana.

After that, I'd like to suggest that we research Engineering tech. We haven't discussed this much yet because the whole thing is contingent on getting Machinery tech first. Engineering has lots of trade value, and we could potentially trade it to PAL for Philosophy, if they end up going that route. The main reason, of course, is to upgrade our spears to pikes (via Banana's iron) and then decimate the horse archers and elephants of Imperio.

Long-term, we want to go Paper -> Education (where we pop our second Great Scientist, naturally!) -> Liberalism -> Nationalism. Ideally we trade some of that stuff to pick up Feudalism and Guilds along the way, and then we research Gunpowder ourselves. Now I realize that this is an extremely conventional tech route, and something that PAL is also assuredly going to try and duplicate, but our economy is steadily improving, and I think we've got a good chance to beat them to it. Not to mention Great Scientist #2 to knock out a very expensive tech along the way.

If we can't trade for Metal Casting, it has to be the next tech researched, unfortunately.

[Swiss Pauli]

Errrrm...we're due to lose the Iron on T123, so we'll need to make sure we can get another loan of the Iron when we need it (if we go for Engineering).

We'll know what PAL's current research is from Banana (if PAL doesn't tell us), so we judge for ourselves whether a Liberalism gambit is realistic. Seeing as they're up Philo on us already, I don't see us winning this race if PAL doesn't detour for Engineering themselves.

[regoarrarr]

So then the question becomes if we see that we're likely to lose the Liberalism race, do we abandon Paper->Edu and just go Philo->Nat?

[T-hawk]

Right, in that case, we don't even need Paper - Edu. Guilds is quicker to Gunpowder, especially if we do manage a Feudalism trade.

[sooooo]

Engineering sounds good to me. Good tech fodder, necessary military tech (extra movement on roads is priceless).

EDIT:

Right, in that case, we don't even need Paper - Edu. Guilds is quicker to Gunpowder, especially if we do manage a Feudalism trade.

But using Sullla's point of a GS lightbulb, the education route becomes shorter. I wouldn't give up hope of liberalism already.

[sunrise089]

@rego - Sure, we abandon Lib if it appears we won't win the race, but we WILL win the race, so it doesn't matter

@Soooo - I'd love our enemies to build up crossbows to try and kill drafted maces. We'll see how well they do versus the knights/elephant in our stack

You are right though that the enemy will see war coming a mile away. The reality though is that in MP you almost always see the attack coming. What you can't control is where the enemy hits, or how hard. An example:

Recent CCC (MP Civ Clan Championship game), Industrial era, ring map, I'm on the front with Byzantium and their super-happiness theater. Switch into Nationalism and start drafting. The other side knows EXACTLY what is coming, and they build/draft as well on top and bottom. It doens't matter when the back player and I move in 60 rifles to their 25 defenders. Lesson: surprise is irrelevant if you can outproduce your rivals. With our greater number of cities and superior musket unit we can still win a war without surprise.

@All - My tech path would be:

-Construction, trade for Calendar from Banana
-Trade for Metal Casting with Templars
-Trade for Machinery from Banana, with beaker credit if necessary
-Music, trade for Drama with Banana
-Engineering, trade to Banana for Machinery beaker deficit/Feudalism
-Run to Lib for Nationalism
-Gunpowder, smash.

[Swiss Pauli]

Maybe Enginering (Philo from PAL, Feud from Banana) then Nationalism (Edu from PAL, Guilds from Banana) would be a good play in case we think we'll be out-teched to Liberalism. In fact, it seems a stronger play to me as I type, as it's more controllable than a Liberalism gambit: we don't need a GS to rein in PAL's tech lead, we won't lose the race if the war with Imperio slows down our research.

Banana should also throw in some other stuff (Drama, Compass), and we'll be able to get Guns with both pre-reqs, and then draft Oromo, maybe even having Globe.

Assuming Pink is cottaged as planned, we can send the GS there for an academy (if we don't get an NE Artist).

No element of surprise? Against Templars/Imperio who weren't sure we had Literature

[regoarrarr]

Guilds is still shorter even with a great scientist

Raw beaker costs
Paper 600
Education 1800 (about 2/3 with a great sci) so say 600
Total 1200

Guilds 1000

[regoarrarr]

Plus, if we're going to punt on liberalism, we might be able to use that to get philo from pal. Something along the lines of

If you trade us Philo, we won't go after Lib. Otherwise we're going to go for it.