Where Do We Settle Next?

[Sullla]

I guess I would summarize my feeling by saying that this is one case where we should make the decision in favor of what will give us more advantage in the short term. The debated city will only be useful until we conquer additional land from our enemies, which may be as short as two dozen or so turns. After that, it will be little more than a military pump/barracks city (which admittedly still holds good usefulness). We should make our decision on that basis, IMO.

With that logic, I think that the New Burgundy site should have preference. The two cities of Old Burgundy and Twin Peaks would be more useful long term, but assuming that we can conquer and hold Jericho, there's no strong reason for founding Twin Peaks at all. I like New Burgundy for its ability to work the rice, two wines tiles, and the grassland hill mine; that gets it a nice mixture of decent food, shields, and commerce, with any additional growth presumably going into working some plains forests. And most of all, I don't like the fact that Old Burgundy must steal some of Pink's best tiles to become useful. I would rather let Pink hold on to the cows and the two grassland hill mines - all of which it is currently working! So it's not like we're stealing useless tiles there.

Anyway, neither are bad spots, but I lean towards the new location.

[ruff_hi]

Sullla - I don't understand your reasoning. I was reading your early sentences thinking that you would go for Old Burg as it can be up and running much quicker than NB, especially when it comes to hammers.

The tiles that I have listed above do not include any tiles stolen from PD. They do include tiles from GA, but when it is in draft mode, it will not be using those tiles.

[sooooo]

Agree with Ruff - Old Burgundy is much better in the short-term and has more forests to chop. I'm changing my vote to Old Burgundy. Not necessarily because of what Ruff said, more of a gradual change of mind. However, the majority wins at the start of next turn and I believe New Burgundy still has a slight advantage.

[ruff_hi]

well, sooooo to vote for OB ... doesn't that automatically bring in t-hawk too?

[mostly-harmless]

Do we have a consensus that we keep Jericho (should we ever capture it, that is)? I am not sure that it is a strong city.
We probably should dotmap Templars lands to get a better idea. Jericho holds no infrastructure of any value.

mh

[Zeviz]

Ruff, could you do a dotmap that includes a replacement city for Jericho? (I mean razing Jericho and putting in another city with less overlap with Constantinopole.)

Looking at Ruff's map, it looks like the best use of tiles is one of the following:
1. Old Burgundy + Jericho + a possible filler city
2. New Burgundy + Jericho Replacement (1 SW of Cows, getting to work Iron, Cows, and some cottages)

Option 1 gives more immediate benefit, so I am tempted to vote for it. (Tentative vote for Old Burgundy, which puts it narrowly ahead in total voting.)

[mostly-harmless]

The overlap with Constantinople is not a problem, as it is all desert tiles (might be an oasis in there). The little problem I have is that it sit ON the iron (losing valuable hammers) and has only one cow tile.

mh

[T-hawk]

No Ruff, this time I disagree with sooooo. It's all about the rice. New Burgundy gets a 5-food tile (with irrigation) all to itself. Old Burgundy can develop at decent rate only by stealing Pink's 4-food cow, which in turn either kills Pink's growth rate or hammer rate by forcing it off its hills.

Both Burgundy sites are just about equal. The tipping factor is choking Pink Dot or not. Whatever slight advantage the Old site may have is not worth robbing Pink Dot.

[ruff_hi]

Here is an analysis of Old v New.

Notes:
1) Old has not borrowed any tiles from PD
2) New borrowed the plains mine plus the plain from A1
3) 3 improvements only (3 farms for New, 2 farms and 1 mine for Old)
4) All numbers are Old v New

Tiles 14 v 16
Max Size no Specialist 10 v 13
Food 23 v 29
Hammers 19 v 16
Commerce 10 v 8
Forests 5 v 3 (only BFC and excluding the 3 for Globe)
Growth 1 -> 2 8 v 6 (growth numbers based on default tile selections)
Growth 2 -> 3 6 v 5
Growth 3 -> 4 7 v 9
Growth 4 -> 5 7 v 10

Old insists on working both grassland farms and adding food at the expense of hammers.
New insists on working the rice plus plains hill mine.

I think it depends on what type of city you want. If you want a short term city, then I don't think either of these meets your needs (Old grows to slowly and stays off hammer tiles, while New has slow medium term growth but poor hammers). If you want a medium term hammer city, then Old is the way. If you want a medium to long term commerce city, then New is the way.

Old has more forests so can get some infrastructure up quicker via chops while New has grassland cottages in its future. It might also be best to save Old's forests for lumber mills.

I'm changing my vote to a third option ... no preference between Old, New or No (ie don't settle).

[mostly-harmless]

Thanks for the numbers, Ruff.
One thing that is overlooked, is that with Old Burgundy we have the option (that was the initial plan) to also settled Twin Peaks (to grab the rice and eventually the cows, should Jericho be razed). With New Burgundy we will definitely not settle the Twin Peaks spot. So New Burgundy should not only be better than Old Burgundy, but better as both old cities combined. And I think that is not the case.
Old Burgundy is not necessarily forcing PD of the rice. We are farming a lot of grassland tiles down there, which won't be used by other cities. Old Burgundy can use those for growth.

mh

[sooooo]

Current Tally:

Old Burgundy:
mostly_harmless
sooooo
Dreylin
Zeviz

New Burgundy:
T-hawk
Sullla
MyOtherCar
Swiss Pauli
Sunrise089

Fence Sitters:
Ruff-Hi

Very close! Only one vote in it, currently New Bugundy is in the lead. Still time for others like Kylearan and regoarrarr to vote or others to change their mind. Ruff - aren't you getting a little sore sitting on that fence?

Let's set a time limit of when the timer ticks over. Whichever city spot is in the lead gets the settler. The city spots are very close in value so I think a slim majority is OK.

[ruff_hi]

well, yes, actually. I still have a slight preference for Old but I can see the value in New. With Twin Peaks in play, that rice and nice grasslands will play a part. Also, Twin will have those grasslands 'behind' it while New will have them in 'front' - easier for pillaging.

I feel like a senator: I voted for the bill before voting against it - change me back to Old.

If we have a tie - can we get Krill to cast the deciding vote (and if something bad happens, blame him?)

[Krill]

:Popcorn:

[sooooo]

I see Krill as more of a fan of the dark ales than the red wine.

[regoarrarr]

I have a slight preference for New Burgundy, but I could go either way