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  • Where Do We Settle Next?

    So we successfully landed Pink Dot - yay! OK, time to decide where the next city goes.



    Here's my doodling that turned into a dotmap of sorts. I marked our current two cities, with the usual green lines indicating 21-tile radius. I believe that we have two real choices for the next city: the red and blue dots indicated above.

    Red Dot: This spot is placed where it is mostly for strategic purposes. It stakes our claim to the narrow region between the peaks in the southeast, and along with Pink Dot, will completely seal off our part of the island. (I marked the level 3 borders/100 culture expansion in light lines to demonstrate.) The location has so-so land, with a rice and cattle resource, plus a few grassland tiles. Nothing to get excited about, obviously, but we could make it into a decent city - probably a production/commerce hybrid. This is more about staking a claim.

    Blue Dot: This location has superior terrain, and is a better overall city spot. On a river, with cows, clams, and a floodplains tile. I think it goes without saying that this is a commerce city, where we cottage most of the land tiles and use the whip for most production. The big downside is that the expansion is away from our opponents, and we can grab this spot whenever we want. If we feel it's important to take a coastal location early on, however, this is the place to go.

    I believe that red is the better place to go next overall. With such a small continent, pushing toward our opponents is the way to go, IMO. (It seems to have worked so far with Pink Dot...) If we are going to attack one of the neighbors early, as has been floated here, we want production cities to get going first instead of commerce ones - and we want forward bases from which to strike. We definitely do NOT want Imperio moving in on our doorstep (although their early cities are much more likely to go in the east). We can tell the Templars that we are moving our third city in the direction of Imperio, because we are worried about their buildup or power (or something madeup like that) to justify the situation. The sooner we can seal off our territory from wandering quechuas like we have now, the better.

    As for the other stuff on this map... I like Yellow for a future city location, around the time we get Iron Working. I'm reasonably sure the Templars won't try to settle there until they can chop jungles, and we'll beat them to that easily. I then filled in some white dots behind it in logical spots. We can get a dozen cities peacefully if all goes according to plan - not bad! More than that if we don't choose to act peacefully too.

    The white circle in the east is the fertile valley that the Templars and Imperio *SHOULD* be competing over. Instead, both civs are still farting around in their capitals, with no settlers produced 45 turns into the game! Whatever. Anyway, their logical paths of expansion are along the colored arrows I drew. By placing our cities in these aggressive spots, we force the Templars to be thinking Eastward in terms of their expansion, which will inevitably bring them into close contact (and tension) with Imperio. Pink and red dots allow us to dictate the terms of the engagement. And so far, we've definitely be able to do that.

    Please post alternate ideas for settlement, other (better) dotmaps and more of the like. I'll also mention here that I'm basing all this on the assumption that we will start building another settler very soon; I personally like going max shields at the capital when we hit size 4, then producing a second archer (2 turns, at 13 shields/turn) and then a settler (8 turns). We could get red with this settler, and then iron with the following one, assuming we don't already have it. But that's probably getting too far ahead.

  • #2
    Given where we put pink dot, our 3rd city must be red dot (or there abouts). Looking at the map, red is my choice of city sites in that local too.

    The alternative is that we send our settler over to the wheat, corn, horses location - a location that I have been totally drooling over since I saw it.
    Quote: "All Happiness is the release of internal pressure"
    Visit my Civ IV web site for information on mods that I am involved with or use and other Civ IV tools
    woo hoo! My wife publishes her first book. Buy it now in paperback format at lulu and help me retire so I can write more BUG mod code.

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    • #3
      I think red dot too. It's not the world's greatest city, but it is in an important location.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ruff_hi
        The alternative is that we send our settler over to the wheat, corn, horses location - a location that I have been totally drooling over since I saw it.
        I'd be all for that, so long as we can debug in defenders with Ctrl-Shift-Click. (One of my favorite games in testing was the one time we tried MP where we allowed unlimited use of the debug features. )

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sullla


          I'd be all for that, so long as we can debug in defenders with Ctrl-Shift-Click. (One of my favorite games in testing was the one time we tried MP where we allowed unlimited use of the debug features. )
          Sounds like a good plan.

          On a more serious note, I agree with the order of Red->Iron City->Yellow dot (to seal off border). Although we should have at least a couple axemen before settling Yellow Dot.

          Pink Dot should probably be the settler pump, because it has lots of food and low happiness cap, while capital might build barracks and focus on the military. Not sure what to do with Red Dot, aside from establishing the border.

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          • #6
            Red Dot seems to go fine with our current strategy. Please, please lets have another archer ready before we settle, as Sullla suggested, as the location will annoy Templars even more.
            White circle has some really nice lands, but is not defendable with just showing a certificate saying we have the most soldier points in the world. Also if we push towards white circle we risk that Templars and Imperio join forces.

            mh

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            • #7
              Red dot should more or less make the Templars diplo thread useless

              Militarily, red dot is bold but very risky - there isn't really any effective way for our army to cover it and pink dot.

              In MP, you typically like to settle cities with only three tiles between them so one-movers can cover both cities. The possibility of an enemy quick-move is less in this game because of the rules, but we still need to be aware we're vulnerable to chariots if they choose to try and split our 2 cities.

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              • #8
                So we are 100% certain we want to found our third city prior to discovering Iron Working? That means a quick fourth city, which probably means not enough Workers. Do we plan on building a Worker out of the gate at red dot?

                Darrell

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                • #9
                  I would hold off. I think with a research pact we can quickly get to construction, and I'd rather secure our peninsula by killing the Tamplars than by settling hard-to-defend cities.

                  I am of course paranoid, so if the team is confident intelligence and diplomatic efforts can prevent Templar aggression then I defer to their judgment.

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                  • #10
                    We will be able to found Red Dot in around 17 turns (~T62) (3 turns current archer + 3 turns 2nd archer + 8 turns settler + 3 settler movement) possibly faster if we chop/whip, which is not yet decided.
                    I estimate we need at least around 28 turns (~T73) until we know Iron Working.
                    By then we will have covered a lot of land with Pink Dot & Red Dot popped second ring and Airstrip One's third ring, to have agood chance on finding iron within our borders.

                    I would not hold off founding third city to wait for location of iron.

                    mh

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                    • #11
                      Hey - just started to write a comment about tech selection, then remembered my comment about thread purity so went looking for a 'tech thread' only to find we don't have one.

                      So - I've been thinking about teching pottery, writing and then iron working v teching pottery and then iron working. If we whip libraries in our cities and hire 2 scientists (or just whip a library into Pink Dot and hire scientists there) do we get to finish Iron Working quicker than just straight out teching it?

                      Writing: Base Cost 120
                      Iron Working: Base Cost 200

                      Assume that none of the tech modifiers apply (as they would apply to both techs equally) and we are putting out 12 beakers per turn ...

                      Straight IW --> 17 turns
                      Writing --> 10 turns, 2 turns to whip libraries, beakers go up to 12 + 2 * 3 = 18 so 200/18 = 12 for a total of about 24 turns (ignoring loss of beakers from whipped population and benefit from 12 turns of GPPs.

                      Based on my crude maths and loads of assumptions, straight IW will get us the tech about 7 turns earlier.
                      Quote: "All Happiness is the release of internal pressure"
                      Visit my Civ IV web site for information on mods that I am involved with or use and other Civ IV tools
                      woo hoo! My wife publishes her first book. Buy it now in paperback format at lulu and help me retire so I can write more BUG mod code.

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                      • #12
                        I had the same thoughts, but with less analysis.
                        Pro:
                        Your analysis can probably be refined further taking into account GPP, increased beaker output due to trade route & cottage.
                        Maybe that narrows down the gap further.
                        Also we need to know Writing before we can trade for Alphabet from PAL, right?
                        Contra:
                        It prolongs our time without metal.

                        So unless we can narrow the gap down to say 3 turns, I would not go for Writing first.

                        mh

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                        • #13
                          We've got to have iron at the capital, don't we? I know we've all made fun of the scenario designer (and not without good reason!) but even a regular map you'd think the odds were pretty high that iron would be near our capital

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by darrelljs
                            So we are 100% certain we want to found our third city prior to discovering Iron Working? That means a quick fourth city, which probably means not enough Workers. Do we plan on building a Worker out of the gate at red dot?

                            Darrell
                            I have kind of been thinking the same thing recently. Normally in SP I like to have about 4-5 workers before I build my 3rd settler. I'm wondering just how at-risk red dot really is. It doesn't really hold much lustre for the other teams. If we could build more archers, a worker and a settler in time for IW then that would be nice in my opinion. If we have iron at our capital then we can use the settler for red dot. Darrell's scenario of having to build 2 settlers in the time it takes to research IW (27 turns) would leave us desperately short of workers. 1 worker per city just isn't enough; this plan would have us temporarily at 3 cities and 2 workers, all for the supposed gain of grabbing red dot. 2 workers per city is optimum. Imperio or Templars I doubt are going to settle there anyway. We would have founded the cities earlier but they wouldn't have the workers to improve them. I am now bringing myself round to darrell's side and waiting for IW to settle our next city.

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                            • #15
                              I usually go with 1 worker per city, unless it's a jungle city. This is especially true considering our low happiness cap.

                              However, I agree that we need more workers at least for roads, so what about training worker #3 before Settler #3?

                              Also, it might make sence to turn Pink Dot into Worker/Settler factory for now, due to happiness limit of 4 with massive food surplus. There is just no way for us to whip away that much food quickly enough. This would mean building barracks at the Capital, and then training guards for new cities.

                              So proposed build order:

                              Capital: current Archer -> Worker -> Barracks -> Archer

                              Pink Dot: Barracks or Granary while growing to size 4 -> Settler

                              For tech, there is another disadvantage to learning Writing before IW: Signing OB with Templars would reveal our bluff. Not signing OB would look very suspicious, especially after we've asked for a missionary in our first message to them. If we don't have writing, we don't face this problem.

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