Team Info and Contacts - Templars

[Dreylin]

This has to do with the delicate balance in diplomacy that currently exists in this game and the fact that my team does not want to side with one team against another.

Well there's the key info from their mail, and this:

the techdeals already in place prohibit us from trading the specified deal with your team

says one of two things: Imperio are researching Aesthetics for them (likely), or Imperio specified non-trade of MC to us (sounds like taking sides to me).

[sunrise089]

2 important things:

1) Our follow-up must seek to add a "expired but still in force" rule to the NAP like we have with Imperio. Otherwise we'll have to go on a war footing many turns before the NAP expires.

2) Imerio has acted dastardly (Epic 1, right?) to insist Templars not trade with us what they trade to Imperio. I would suggest we respond in kind.

[mostly-harmless]

Dear members of team Realms Beyond,

We first want to apologise to have kept you waiting for so long. It
was not our intention, however, we encountered some rather hectic
situations that demanded all of our attention recently, and the
attention for your request has suffered a lot as a result. We wanted
to respond much sooner than this but each time something else came up
that required our direct attention. And one member after another drops
by with yet another opinion making it hard to reach a compromise.
However, the team is in agreement on a response to your proposals. One
by one I will state our position.

"We had to set all the deals and negotiations in place with Imperio & Banana first to be sure we can take the p*** at you."
We did not even get a "message received" if I remember correctly.

First we want to compliment you with building the Great Library.

Regarding the border: we have previously indicated that my team wants
to include the jungle area in the south to its territory. Although at
the present time we have little interest in developing this area, we
intend to settle there at some point. Therefore we accept your offer
of the first choice. We do not have a plan for the region yet, but we
are happy to inform you in advance when we plan to settle there.
However, don't expect this to be soon. As you stated, to our east it
is much better to settle, so indeed, our focus is there.

They must really look forward to take over Pink and its surrounding, if they still consider their southern jungle area not worth settling at this time. Their east is good, but it is not that good. That barb city they took (Damaskus) is not ideally placed and they have not settled another city in ages.

The NAP proposal has been received positively by the team. We welcome
the initiative. If only we could have reached this back in August,
what level of cooperation we could have reached by now! Would I have
had the opportunity, I would have told you sooner that my team
considers that since the turn of your request, 104, we formally have a
NAP. I hope that eases your feelings. However, many members were a bit
more hesistant than yours, it seems. This has to do with the delicate
balance in diplomacy that currently exists in this game and the fact
that my team does not want to side with one team against another. We
can't afford that at this moment given the dominance of some teams in
the game. Therefore some members argued for a 10 turn renewable NAP,
some for 20 turns and the more ambitious members for 30 turn NAP. For
a consensus we decided to go for a compromise and offer a 20 turn NAP
since the turn of your request. At the end of these 20 turns we can
easily extend then.

Load of bovine excrement.
We have already proposed an NAP back in August (I checked), but they have repeatedly turned it down by hiding behind their stupid border agreement.
And a NAP lasting til T124 is not worth anything! And it times nicely with the expiry of Imperios NAP.

Regarding techtrading, we are happy to trade techs, however, the
techdeals already in place prohibit us from trading the specified deal
with your team. We are currently researching Theology, so perhaps we
can set up an exchange in the near future. We look forward to
exploring this further.

So they have agreed with Imperio to not trade us Metal Casting, ever. Right, a good start for future cooperation.

Regarding your workboat: Do we already have open borders? If not, we
should get it signed. I think we should generally refrain from
exploring each other's territory, but in this case, we are happy to
let your workboat go through our waters. As a general direction, I can
say that we met Banana in the east. We haven't spotted them, but they
spotted a workboat from us.

They can't even be bothered to check whether we have open borders and what agreements (no scouting) we already have in place.

To sum it up.
There is nothing substantial here. Just the usual load of bla-bla. Did we ever get anything useful from Templars via diplomacy? Don't think so.

I know we are desperate to find new tech partners, but Templars are not it. They have low GNP to start with, are not allowed to trade us what we want and go for Theology next.
I say, lets get a line of sight into their cities by moving the chariot into their territory and settle that southern jungle soon for our own.
They are clearly teamed up with Imperio already anyway.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

acknowledgement sent:

Dear Aidun,

Message received and is under discussion. We aim to reply to you ASAP.

Cheers,

Swiss Pauli

[Swiss Pauli]

...my team does not want to side with one team against another. We can't afford that at this moment given the dominance of some teams in
the game.

I would say Imperio bullied them into not trading MC to us...if we were in their shoes, would we have been able to resist Imperio's demands? We should probe them a bit on this, probably in a new email thread to find out how pissed they are with Imperio. It's a shame that their play (aside from MC) has been so poor, else we could propose to ally with them against Imperio.

Therefore some members argued for a 10 turn renewable NAP,
some for 20 turns and the more ambitious members for 30 turn NAP. For
a consensus we decided to go for a compromise and offer a 20 turn NAP
since the turn of your request. At the end of these 20 turns we can
easily extend then.

This is better than nothing, and becomes very useful if Imperio doesn't declare by T124 as I don't see them breaking a NAP.

Regarding techtrading, we are happy to trade techs, however, the
techdeals already in place prohibit us from trading the specified deal
with your team.

This is huge: they could have fobbed us off saying they have no immediate need for the techs we offer, but they've really let the cat out of the bag here! We should ask whether the ban on trading us MC is a permanent one.

We are currently researching Theology, so perhaps we
can set up an exchange in the near future. We look forward to
exploring this further.

Excellent. I wonder whether PAL will trade them CS for Theo? Maybe we should propose to trade Theo with PAL to find out whether they're interested in it?

Regarding your workboat: Do we already have open borders? If not, we
should get it signed. I think we should generally refrain from
exploring each other's territory, but in this case, we are happy to
let your workboat go through our waters.

We should get a WB through here ASAP.Will let us meet Banana and hopefully explore their lands a bit. Will also free our galley to head back home for troop ferry duty.

[sooooo]

The email gives us some useful information. The game is down now so I cannot check - are we in a position to send a work boat along the southern coast?

Points for a follow-up email:

1) I think we should put paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 of sunrise's email in, talking about the possibility of a more coordinated cooperation between us, templars and banana.

2) As Swiss suggested, ask them if they are unable to trade MC for anything. How about "We are slightly disappointed that we cannot work out a deal for Metal Casting. Is your agreement that you cannot trade it for the two techs we offered, or is it for any techs we may offer? Some members of our team suspect that Imperio has bound you to refuse to trade the tech with us. Is that the case, and if so, what would cause you to make such a deal? We would not like to hinder RB-Templars tech trading with agreements such as this. As two teams with less fertile lands than Imperio, we need to cooperate more with tech trading to keep up."

3) Maybe: "Thank you for allowing a work boat to pass by your southern coast. We do indeed have open borders but we had a no-scouting clause so thought it prudent to check with yourselves first."

[mostly-harmless]

I must say, I can't share your optimism, Swiss.

I would say Imperio bullied them into not trading MC to us...if we were in their shoes, would we have been able to resist Imperio's demands? We should probe them a bit on this, probably in a new email thread to find out how pissed they are with Imperio. It's a shame that their play (aside from MC) has been so poor, else we could propose to ally with them against Imperio.

Why would you assume Imperio bullied Templars into anything?
Templars started MC in T85. One can assume that the deal with Imperio was agreed on even a couple of turns earlier. By that time both Imperio and Templars had 3 cities each and we were the civ to fear. Since the, I guess Templars are really pleased to see Imperio developing and giving us the cold shoulder. I would not assume for a minute they are pissed at Imperio.

This is better than nothing, and becomes very useful if Imperio doesn't declare by T124 as I don't see them breaking a NAP.

Sine T100 when Imperio did not extend the NAP we have been nothing than worried and are running a crash military build up to be ready for T120. How is a NAP expiring at T124 any good?

This is huge: they could have fobbed us off saying they have no immediate need for the techs we offer, but they've really let the cat out of the bag here! We should ask whether the ban on trading us MC is a permanent one.

We now know for certain that we have to research Metal Casting ourselves. Yes, thanks a lot Templars for setting that straight.

Excellent. I wonder whether PAL will trade them CS for Theo? Maybe we should propose to trade Theo with PAL to find out whether they're interested in it?

If it is true (and remember we are doing smoke and mirrors with our research) than I am not sure why it is excellent?

We should get a WB through here ASAP.Will let us meet Banana and hopefully explore their lands a bit. Will also free our galley to head back home for troop ferry duty.

I disagree. Wasting hammers on a workboat is not worth it.
Meeting the Banana boat in 4-5 turns is our best chance.
Plan B is to move our chariot to the southeastern corner trying to spot Banana's border. That will take what ~6 turns or so?
Plan C is to move our galley south through the channel regardless of PALs no scouting clause. That will take ~10 turns until we meet Banana.
Building a workboat in Something Fishy and sending it on the journey east takes ~18-20 turns. And we won't even pick up useful map info from Templars on the way.

Templars message is supposed to distract and pacify us in my opinion.

mh

[Zeviz]

I don't see Templar email as negatively as some people do. Most likely, their RB thread looks similar to our Templar thread: Some people are saying "they are insulting us, crush them like bugs", while others are saying "they sound friendly enough". However actions speak louder than words. Here are their actions as I see them:

1. They haven't made any tangible war preparations. (If they really were planning for Pink Dot to become their next city, the should have started military buildup by now.)

2. They revealed their tech plans to us. (The could have easily stalled for time without saying anything as revealing as that.)

For our reply, I completely agree with Sooooo. We should still send most of the earlier, well planned email, including the question about the limitations on their trade and a suggestion that we would never place such restrictions on any deals we make with them.

PS Is it worth mentioning that Imperio refused to renew their NAP with us, so we are worried about combined Imperio/Templar attack around turn 120 and would feel much safer with a Templar NAP that lasts at least until turn 130?

PPS On the other hand, it's equally likely that they are just stalling for time. So I'd suggest negotiating as if they are our friends, but training troops as if they are our enemies. ("If you want peace, be ready for war", or whatever the equivalent English saying is. )

[Sullla]

I don't know if it's quite as negative as you make it out to be, mostly_harmless. I read Templars more as "really disorganized and clumsy" than "master schemers hiding their intentions to attack." As far as specific points go:

- We need to try and pin them down on specifics of a non-aggression pact. I think we can tell them that a 15-turn NAP (since it's already T109!) is not particularly useful. We should lean on them and try to get a firmer agreement in place. If we can get one that stretches to T135 or beyond, great! If they refuse, well, that tells us something about their real intentions too! We get valuable information either way.

- On techs, asking about Metal Casting is indeed the way to go. I like the line of questioning about "are you against the specific deal we proposed, or does your team simply refuse to trade Metal Casting at all?" Depending on their answer, we'll know a lot more about where they stand.

- We should also thank them for offering to let our work boat pass through their territory (it stinks that they didn't agree to that 10 turns ago, when we had a work boat in position waiting to move east!) and for the agreement to settle our border city in the north. Remember, we now have carte blanche with them to settle Twin Peaks, and we probably should do so in the next ~10-15 turns.

- One last questionable point: do we want to ask them flat out, "what are your feelings on Imperio?" Too direct - what does everyone think?

I still think this is generally good news. Even if we have nothing further than a NAP until T124, that still gives us another four turns beyond what we were expecting.

[sooooo]

Another thing: Possibly we could suggest to them about spreading their religion for them. They have a shrine, right? We could suggest that if they send us, say, 2 missionaries of their shrine relgion then we would agree to spread it around our cities by building our own missionaries. Both win here: we have a unified religion and they get shrine money.

[Swiss Pauli]

Why would you assume Imperio bullied Templars into anything?
Templars started MC in T85. One can assume that the deal with Imperio was agreed on even a couple of turns earlier.

That's a big assumption, but even back then, Imperio were the leading civ on our island, and Templars the runt of the litter. It was hardly a marriage of equals.

By that time both Imperio and Templars had 3 cities each and we were the civ to fear. Since the, I guess Templars are really pleased to see Imperio developing and giving us the cold shoulder. I would not assume for a minute they are pissed at Imperio.

We need to probe Templars on their feelings about Imperio.

Sine T100 when Imperio did not extend the NAP we have been nothing than worried and are running a crash military build up to be ready for T120. How is a NAP expiring at T124 any good?

Then you've changed your mind about when Imperio will declare. If they don't declare by T124, and we renew the NAP with Templars then we've every chance of a fair fight with Imperio.

We now know for certain that we have to research Metal Casting ourselves. Yes, thanks a lot Templars for setting that straight.

You missed the point completely here: they divulged information that they simply did not have to tell us. This alone suggests to me that they only accepted the deal with Imperio out of perceived necessity.

If it is true (and remember we are doing smoke and mirrors with our research) than I am not sure why it is excellent?

We know what they're researching which is great. They're offering to trade it to us, so why would they lie?

I disagree. Wasting hammers on a workboat is not worth it.
Meeting the Banana boat in 4-5 turns is our best chance.
Plan B is to move our chariot to the southeastern corner trying to spot Banana's border. That will take what ~6 turns or so?
Plan C is to move our galley south through the channel regardless of PALs no scouting clause. That will take ~10 turns until we meet Banana.
Building a workboat in Something Fishy and sending it on the journey east takes ~18-20 turns. And we won't even pick up useful map info from Templars on the way.

Then we agree to disagree I think a scouting WB would give us useful info on Banana and Templars, and free up the galley to do something more worthwhile (unit ferry).

[Swiss Pauli]

Another thing: Possibly we could suggest to them about spreading their religion for them. They have a shrine, right? We could suggest that if they send us, say, 2 missionaries of their shrine relgion then we would agree to spread it around our cities by building our own missionaries. Both win here: we have a unified religion and they get shrine money.

We'd have to ask them to gift the missionaries at our border, of course. And sadly they have no shrine as yet, but we could ask how progress is going on the Great Prophet that they should be working on.

This would fit well with us being lukewarm about trading for Theology ("we're not keen as it's a dead-end tech, but we'll make a deal for it if you give us a couple of missionaries").

[mostly-harmless]

They don't have shrine, nor any prophet generating wonder.

@Swiss: Fair enough, it wouldn't be a demogame if everybody agrees on everything.
With respect to the galley. I still think we should move down the channel, if only to do step in step out scouting on PALs coastal cities. It will take ages for the galley to arrive at Cape Town.

mh

[sunrise089]

I am sick today, but when I have 5 or 10 free minutes, I'm happy to edit my draft above with the new ideas posted since. If someone else gets to it first however, no worries.

[mostly-harmless]

Get well soon. We need you to command our troops in battle!

mh