Team Info and Contacts - Imperio

[mostly-harmless]

Just thought I'd reheat the Cape Town question again...if Imperio is looking for a concession to change sides, how about proposing Cape Town for Jerusalem? This trade could only happen at the end of the war with Templars, so there's no chance of a double-cross, and it would also ensure that Imperio is fully committed to the war against Templars.

I realise it would leave us without horses, and needing to build HE elsewhere, but only a poor chess player never considers giving up his queen

No!
Lets put an end to that debate.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

No!
Lets put an end to that debate.

mh

No, not without a reasoned argument

[sooooo]

I'm pretty sure that we did consider the madcap idea of giving up our queen for a few pages. However, this is not a crushing mating attack, it's blundering the queen after capturing one or two minor pieces. Cape Town is a magnificent city and is not worth giving up for to capture Jericho and Jerusalem, especially as it means Imperio getting 3 other templar cities too. Plus there's the fact that we cannot trust Imperio further than we can throw them, that they'll be terrible allies due to their lack of communication and that they only have one flaky turnplayer who threatens to quit when he cannot connect to the server.

[mostly-harmless]

No, not without a reasoned argument

We had a long discussion for the last weeks over this issue.
If you want a reasoned argument NOT to give up the city:
It's considered a core city.
It is a good city spot grabbing 2 copper, horses & cows.
It is invaluable for our current and any future military buildup.
It is the perfect HE city, as it gives us a military pump right up on the front.
It is the best defended city at the moment (walls, lots of culture).
It secures A1 eastern flank including the coast.
We went to painful lengths to secure that spot.
Imperios claim on it is not rational.

Add to that the reasons sooooo brought up, that there is no chance to come to a working agreement with Imperio.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

We had a long discussion for the last weeks over this issue.

Not exactly: we were discussing giving up Cape Town now for some future benefit (with potential to be double-crossed). The deal I'm putting forward trades Cape Town for Jerusalem, and gets us out of this stalemate. Don't forget that we can get at least two strong cities into Jerusalem's hinterland. And it will cost Imperio a lot of hammers to take Jerusalem (leaving them more vulnerable to our attack).

If you want a reasoned argument NOT to give up the city:
It's considered a core city.
It is a good city spot grabbing 2 copper, horses & cows.

Core isn't relevant, as this deal redefinies our core, but I won't deny that it's a strong city (because of the synergy between HE and its tiles).

It is invaluable for our current and any future military buildup.
It is the perfect HE city, as it gives us a military pump right up on the front.
It is the best defended city at the moment (walls, lots of culture).

Not sure about the future potential of the city as a military pump. I'd think an HE city that we could whip might be better for post-Renaissance units, but it's clearly great for units right now. The point about its defence isn't relevant as it's a truism: it's the best defended because it's the most vulnerable city

It secures A1 eastern flank including the coast.

One could equally say it sticks out like a sore thumb, and we have to plough massive amounts into military to defend it.

We went to painful lengths to secure that spot.
Imperios claim on it is not rational.

These arguments aren't relevant: the consideration is whether we gain more than we lose with this deal.

Add to that the reasons sooooo brought up, that there is no chance to come to a working agreement with Imperio.

mh

Of sooooo's arguments, only the communication one really holds water. However, our alliance need only last as long as it takes us to get what we want. And let's not forgot that there's nothing to stop us taking back Cape Town by force when we implement phase two of Operation Bloodbath

[sunrise089]

But a chess player is poor indeed if he gives up his queen without increasing his chances to checkmate his rival.

Frankly, I continue to favor just conquering Jerusalem ourselves.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but there's a reason why we've burned hundreds of hammers on theaters, settlers, and other infrastructure builds. It's because we're sacrificing in the short-term (by not building units and killing enemy units) to be stronger in the long term. So again, each turn that passes we grow stronger and Templars grow weaker. The key infrastructure builds (granary, barracks, forges, lighthouses) will be done soon and allow most of our cities to build and draft units. Making a concession at this point seems lunacy to me.
_____

Or a quicker answer: Why the heck make concessions when we're winning the war?

[Kylearan]

Or a quicker answer: Why the heck make concessions when we're winning the war?

Exactly!

[ruff_hi]

I don't see us making concessions to anyone any time soon - however, I don't have a problem discussing loopy ideas like this. At the moment, we hold Cape Town as a very strong bargaining chip. It will take more than a peace offer from Imperio for us to trade it. That said, if they come up with something as equally valuable, and it offers us a clear strategic gain, I would trade it like a shot. Its just that Imperio's side of the deal has to be a lot stronger than they are currently offering.

[Swiss Pauli]

As I see it, this (or a similar) deal would indeed allow us to checkmate Templars, and leave us in a good position to go after Imperio. We should be wise enough to realise that we can't have our cake and eat it.

Let's be honest, we're not winning the war yet (though we have won some minor skirmishes). We hope that drafting Oromos will give us the edge to break the stalemate, but it's debatable whether it will work in a 2 on 1 situation (especially if our enemies can field Knights, the ideal counter to Oromos).

We get to keep Cape Town for ages under this plan anyway...it's not as if Jerusalem will fall in less than 30-40 turns!

[Zeviz]

The problem with Cape Town sacrifice is that its time is over. The original idea was to break the stalemate and make peace on our continent in time to take out PAL when Banana NAP runs out.

At this point, it looks very unlikely that we'll be able to negotiate the deal, take out Templars, build a navy, and send a force to eastern continent in time. This means that even if we give up Cape Town, we'll likely be too late to stop PAL. So we have to redefine our victory condition as full control of our continent. And giving up Cape Town doesn't help with that.

[Swiss Pauli]

The problem with Cape Town sacrifice is that its time is over. The original idea was to break the stalemate and make peace on our continent in time to take out PAL when Banana NAP runs out.

That deal was way too unbalanced and too prone to failure. My proposal doesn't share these weaknesses.

At this point, it looks very unlikely that we'll be able to negotiate the deal, take out Templars, build a navy, and send a force to eastern continent in time. This means that even if we give up Cape Town, we'll likely be too late to stop PAL. So we have to redefine our victory condition as full control of our continent. And giving up Cape Town doesn't help with that.

So you think we can take out Templars with Imperio at war with us as well? Don't forget that a lot of Cape Town's strength is derived from a Heroic Epic that it won't have when we hand it over to Imperio.

[MyOtherCar]

We lose Cape Town over my dead body.

And another reason: I'd hate for the team to loose Sullla.

[Sullla]

I love wacky, off the wall ideas. I don't love it when said wacky ideas keep coming to the fore over and over again, when it has become abundantly clear that they ARE wacky ideas.

Can we please drop this nonsense? We are not going to send any kind of offer to Imperio in which we tamely give away our #1 military producer in exchange for... what, exactly? A promise that they will suddenly become our allies? Uh huh. Because Imperio has shown that they are *SO* trustworthy, right?

This is my last post on the subject. It was fun when we were playing around earlier, but now it's just a waste of our time and energy. Let's focus on meaningful discussions, like coordinating our research/plans with Banana and tightening up our city management for the upcoming drafting spree.

[Swiss Pauli]

Unless I've missed something, the only time we had to trust Imperio was in respecting the NAP, which they did. Also, there doesn't need to be a great deal of trust on either side for my deal to work: if Imperio doesn't deliver Jerusalem, they don't get Cape Town. There's nothing vague about it at all, and I despair that people keep describing it as a ill-defined proposal. It's a deal based on clearly defined objectives.

Have you guys forgotten the PAL-Rabbits stalemate already? Our enemies are much better prepared than Rabbits were, and we don't seem to have considered how we're going to convert our drafting spree into a campaign that allows us to actually take (and hold) any enemy cities.

Going on raw soldier points, we currently have:

RB: 454k
Im: 380k
Tp: 275k (est)

Aidun said Templars won't make peace, as it just allows us to go after Imperio (and then come for them). Templars may be lame turnplayers, but they are not blind to the metagame. As I see it, we need to take the risk of letting Imperio think they can take us on after we take out Templars, else we'll be stuck in this stalemate forever.

[mostly-harmless]

Swiss, you are painting a too black a picture. We are not losing this conflict at the moment. So why are you in panic mode?
And what the heck do you want with Jerusalem anyway? Look at the spot. It's a mediocre city at best and does not even have any infrastructure, besides a barracks. If you think that by getting Jerusalem, we will be able to settle the spot south of it, we can do that in any case.

mh