SOCIAL ENGINEERING/GOVERNMENT (ver2.1): Hosted by Bell

[will I]

Gosh, it seems every time I go away for a few days, the number of CE factors grows! I liked Harel's slimmer 10-factor list much better than the more recent 14-factor full version. Here are my ideas for compression, based on the M@ni@c 15-factor list.

Production -- I would eliminate the food bonus for production and make the productivity bonus apply both units and buildings. I would couple production with an increased pollution rate.

Urbanization -- I would also call this "growth," and pair it with the food function that I stripped out of "production" in the preceding paragraph. It would look something like this.
Growth:
+5 growth occurs with each seven rows of food, and an aqueduct is necessary at pop. 11.
+4 growth at eight rows of food, aqueduct necessary at pop. 10.
+3 growth at eight rows of food, aqueduct at 9
+2 growth at nine rows of food, aqueduct at 9
+1 growth at nine rows of food, aqueduct at 8
0 growth at ten rows, aqueduct at 8
-1 growth at ten rows, aqueduct at 7
-2 growth at 11 rows, aqueduct at 7
-3 growth at 11 rows, aqueduct at 6
-4 growth at 12 rows, aqueduct at 6
-5 growth at 12 rows, aqueduct at 5

Evangelism - eliminate as duplicative of the latest religions proposal, which handles all religious issues outside of SE. I think that once you see our proposal, you'll agree that making religion something independent of SE, which has affects across borders, would introduce a worthwhile and interesting new twist to the game.

Reconaissance should not affect emigration

Environment should be combined with Production

Taxes should be eliminated

Internal control should be eliminated as duplicative of the latest religions proposal.

Military industrial should be combined with production.

That would be an alternate way to pare the list down to ten items, which should be more manageable.

[Maniac]

Will :

You don't realize how inaccurate and generalizing that 10 factors are. It's impossible to push it into ten factors as in SMAC, cause my factors affect much more than the few things SMAC did.

"Production -- I would eliminate the food bonus for production and make the productivity bonus apply both units and buildings. I would couple production with an increased pollution rate."

Your first suggestion and your first mistake.
+'s always have to be good and -'s always bad. And since Free Market should get an Environment penalty, it should also get a Production bonus. Which is not true.

"Urbanization -- I would also call this "growth," and pair it with the food function that I stripped out of "production" in the preceding paragraph. It would look something like this."

So now you're saying that increased pop growth automatically means more food? That people in Africa will be glad to hear it.

"Evangelism - eliminate as duplicative of the latest religions proposal, which handles all religious issues outside of SE. I think that once you see our proposal, you'll agree that making religion something independent of SE, which has affects across borders, would introduce a worthwhile and interesting new twist to the game."

Read my posts in the Religion thread carefully, Will. I already have eliminated the connections with the real SE.
And Evangelism isn't a duplicate. I said explicitly that State Religion only should have an Evangelism bonus IN your empire, just as you said. Same with Persecution.
And if Evangelism is deleted, how would you represent the Evangelism bonus of High Priestship - Theocracy - Fundamentalism?
BTW, I don't know anymore in which post, but you said that Fundamentalism should have an Evangelism bonus in the entire world and State Religion only in your own empire.
That is just what Fundamentalism and State Religion do! I don't know why you are against Evangelism. cause we agree actually.

"Reconaissance should not affect emigration"

Good news for you, it doesn't exist anymore.
And Nationalism does affect it. Agreed?

"Environment should be combined with Production"

You already said that and I already answered.

"Taxes should be eliminated"

Why? Cause you don't agree with my manner of giving tithes(which I represented with -2 Tax) to State Religion? And now you want to delete it completely? Taxes allow more precision. Instead of eg giving Dynasty and Socialism a -1 Eco (which makes that choices very bad) to represent the loss of taxes, you can give it -2 Tax which is more accurate AND balanced.

"Internal control should be eliminated as duplicative of the latest religions proposal."

Again the same problem. I don't like your tithes system and you try to delete Conviction cause it's a problem for your tithes idea. Deleting it would be very bad.

"Military industrial should be combined with production."

That means 4 previous factors in a new one! Support, Military Industry, Centralization and Environmentalism. Talking about balance... Perhaps (of course) there are unbalancing things in my system, but less than in what you are presenting.

"That would be an alternate way to pare the list down to ten items, which should be more manageable."

What do you have with the number ten? In the beginning of the post I said why you can't do that. More manageable? Oh damn, I seem to have a better memory than most people I know, but if you can't manage 15 things, then I don't see why 10 *should* be possible.

[Maniac]

Value

Same old with some changes...

Knowledge : +2 Res, +1 Corr, -2 Mor

The new Morale(other name please) factor makes spying on Knowledge valued civs easier cause it affects the spy success rate. + High tech civs’ people become weaker and decadent.

Wealth : +1 Eco, +1 Pro, -1 Sen, -2 Hap

Rich class has something to say = -1 Sen. Poor people become unhappier = -2 Hap

Socialism : +2 Hap, +2 Urb, -2 Tax

Support for everyone in the society causes greater happiness = +2 Hap. Less death so bigger pop growth = +2 Urb, but support requires a lot money = -2 Tax.

Survival/Power : +2 Mil, +2 Mor, +2 Sen, -2 Pro

Survival and Power requires support and training for the army = +2 Mil, +2 Mor. In high need (=the will to survive) or just because the foreign politics is imperialist the senate will be more tolerable to allow war = +2 Sen. But civil production tends to fall behind, cause a lot of resources go to the army = -2 Pro.
I think Survival and Power have the same effects on society. But I don’t know what name to pick.
For small civs it is Survival and for large Power.

I think these choice are more balanced.
In a big war or in the beginning of the game Survival/Power is good and in peacetime there are 3 good options, each with one of the three (four) most important factors. Knowledge has Research, Wealth Economy and Socialism Happiness.

Research

Mostly the same --

Wise Men : no pos or neg
Natural : +2 Env, -1 Urb, +25% Economic Research
Humaniterian : +2 Hap, -1 Mor, +25% Social Research
Practical : +2 Mil, -1 Res, +25% Military Research
Exploring : +2 Res, -1 Hap, +25% Academic Research

Perhaps Natural shoulf get –1 Pro.
Earlier Humaniterian had +2 Cult(factor doesn’t exist anymore). That wasn’t a really good choice. Now it’s better.
Earlier some found Practical too weak. Now the Military factor is more important. Question : should I change the research bonus to +35% to keep up with the loss of research by –1 Res?

Religion

The Religion Category doesn’t exist anymore. Check out the Religion thread.

Economy, Structure, Army

To be continued…

[Jon Miller]

hi all

I'm leaving for a while

the basics of my se structure are in this thread

control idea can be found earlier in the thread when I was talking about AI

I have government, populace, and economic sections

none of my ideas are complete but Bell should post them anyway (cause it should be easy to see what I was trying to do and BR could use that idea)

hopefully we will be able to refine our ideas after this next summarization

I'll be gone on my vaction until the 21st or 22nd

this should give me time to repost my ideas together

people are still not getting that technology does not make people think a way (and have certain modifiers), nor does government but rather the values of the people make them act a certain way (and have certain modifiers)

I kepp on hereing things like, once a certain tech comes arround all your people statr acting a certain way which people did arrpund that time for our history

a social historian would see however that while values sometimes defined what social tech was learned, social tech (nor physical tech) did not define the values of the people

you make this occur with your ideas of age of faith and democracy and countless other areas making us players in civ just replay world history, not make our own civ with the tools of humanity

but maybe I want a different game then you do

I will probably buy the game you want but I am bent on making it as perfect as possible and realistic and working so as not to force me into playing historical civs (no I do not want to play futuristic civs either, I just want it to be realistic in that I can try my own social theories (just ones that where discovered in regular earth history but maybe never implemented) on my people and depending on my peoples vaues some will work and some will not

the US's republic system would not (and is not in several areas of the world) work under certain values

the populace is the key

I also had some strange ideas in radical, in technology, and in combat

Jon Miller

[Maniac]

Structure

I agree with Harel that structure choices don't evolve.

City State : no pos or neg

Starting option. Some people would say it has positives and negatives. I think those are covered under Government - Tribal Assembly and Economy - Autarcy.

Feudal : +2 Mil, +2 Tax, -2 Pro

Feudal is a structure choice, not an Economy choice. Perhaps I should give it -1 Production and -1 Urbanization/Growth.

Imperial/Federal : +2 Corr, +2 Nat, -2 Hap

Imperial and Federal have the same effects, just don't know which name to choose.
Imperial is the old name, Federal the modern one.

Confederate : +2 Hap, +2 Rel, -1 Corr, -1 Pro

I deleted Commonwealth cause that should be a diplomatic option.
Harel, Unity should give a considerable trade bonus.

Again 4 choices.

Army and Economy for later...

[Maniac]

Will :

If I could do it with 10 factors I would, but -I've already said it- the factors affect more than the SMAC ones. And you too have to keep an eye on Accuracy (Acc). Generalizing and pushing it in too less factors gives a very negative rate.

About deleting Evangelism, how then can you represent Fundy?
And emigration is just one of the four uses of Nationalism. Deleting that can't shorten the # of factors.

Diodorus :

Deleting the Research category (do you mean that with universal research choices) is possible if you reintroduce Value - Environment to regain two +Env choices. Also to have 2 +Res things, you must have another +2 Res.
+2 Res for Religious Freedom?(see religion thread)

Perhaps solutions for if some category disappears should also be included in the very huge summary.

Research

If there's a Research category, Wise Men should have -2 Res to replace the -2 Res of the disappeared Religion - Animism.

Economy :


Don't know if you will like it. Everyone disagrees about Economy.


Barter : -2 Tax
->Currency : no pos or neg


Doesn't need an explanation anymore, I think.


Autarcy : +1 Pro, +2Rel??, -1 or 2 Corr
->Guilds : +2 Pro, +2 Rel, - 1 or 2 Eco
-->Communism : +3 Pro, +2 Nat, -2 Eco, (-1 Corr)
--->Utopia : +3 Pro, +2 Nat, +2 Env, -2 Eco, -2 Tax, -1 Corr


About Autarcy. The Greek City States were Autarcy, which means self supply. But they were also big traders (+2 Rel), not very Autarcy. How does this fit together? Diodorus, please fresh up my memory.
And about that -2 Corr. Autarcy works well for small nations, but not for big.
Prove : all the villages and cities between 500 and 1000 were Manorialism = every manor has it's own autarcy.
And I know that Communism isn't really the evolution of Guilds, but they both share the +2 Pro and they both share socialist ideology.
Which reminds me I have to say to Harel and Jon Miller that the Happiness bonus that you give to Communism, I gave to Value - Socialism. It fits better there, I think.
Oh, Bell, don't forget to mention in the summary that Utopia is a no-money-society.


Mercantilism : +1 Eco, +2 Urb, -1 Sen, -2 Rel
->Colonial : +1 Eco, +2 Urb, +1/2 Pro (or +2 Tax), -2 Rel, -2 Nat


I don't know if that +2 Urb fits for Colonial.
And with 1/2 I don't mean a half, but 1 or 2.


Capitalism : +2 Eco, -3 Pol, -2 Mil
->Free Market : +2 Eco, +2 Corr, -5 Pol, -3 Env
-->Transnational : +3 Eco, +2 Corr, +2 Pro, -8 Pol, -3 Env, -2 Mor


I just renamed Banking to Capitalism and changed the Support penalty to Military cause Mil and Sup are melted together.
About Transnational. All the other Economy choices have already a big or small +Pro.
So another is too much, I think.
Perhaps change it too
-->Transnational : +3 Eco, +2 Corr, -8 Pol, -3 Env ?

Army

Sorry, I really need help for this one. (or otherwise said :"Where is Harel when you need him?")

So far I think...

Militia : no pos or neg

Mercenary : +?, -2 Tax
Military Caste : ?
Both evolve in...
->Professional : +2 Hap, +2 Mor, -2 Mil

Levee in Mass : +?, -2 Pro
Evolves in two choices...
->Draft : +?, -2 Hap
->Conscription : +?, -2 Mor

Can't really think of any difference what Military Castes have on a society. Diodorus, you suggested it...

The -2 Pro is for the people/farmers having to leave for war and leave behind there fields. Loss of production.
In the Roman example, the senators bought the ground from the farmers-legionnaires and got latifundia (another reason for giving Republic +2 Pro?). The ex-farmers went to Rome to join the proletariat.

After the Army category is determined, we can begin to pinpoint the many faults in my new ideas.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

M@ni@c: No detailed commentary here, just wanted to say that I like the way your combination Harel's et al system is shaping up - good synthesis of ideas from all corners.
My only quibble is that I'd rather not see 'universal' Research choices. My preference (and that's all it is, by the way) is to let you choose a General Category for Emphasis but have the modifiers depend on Infrastructure (universities, Think Tanks, Libraries, etc) and the conditions of your civilization.
For instance, Ship Building Advance (actually, in my Tech system, an Application of Exploration/Expand) would have a + factor if the civ researching it has 50% of more cities that are ports, and would not be researchable at all if you had no port cities.
That's an easy example, and I'll be posting over in Technology Thread a set of early techs and the +/- factors for research based on civ conditions.
As I said, just an opinion: I think the game will work either way, I think my system will be harder to implement and playtest, but can lead to an option for much more historical games when coupled with Historical Starting Terrain Positions option at Start Up.

[will I]

M@ni@c:

I could certainly keep track of the 15 SE factors you have proposed. Would it be fun? It would probably be okay, but substantially less fun than with a little less complexity. To express it in the terms of this complaint greater control over SE factors increases fun, but only up to a point. Afterward, with more complexity, we start getting +1, +2, and +3 annoyance (Ann). And, as we know, the more the annoyance, the fewer the buyers. I think your system goes way beyond that threshold. Ten is not a magic number, but a level of complexity at around that point seems to work for SMAC, which is why I've been harping on it. And ten is not de facto imbalanced, just as 15 factors is not de facto balanced. It's all in how you use the factors. Having seen your efforts to date, I have no doubt that you could derive a balanced system using 10 factors.

I also apologize for merely critiquing and not offering a grand alternative. But I must balance my participation here against work and family, and do not have time to do more than offer suggestions on how I might improve the existing proposals. I hope someone is listening. There's a lot in these proposals that's good, and they can still be saved.

[will I]

M@ni@c:

I could certainly keep track of the 15 SE factors you have proposed. Would it be fun? It would probably be okay, but substantially less fun than with a little less complexity. To express it in the terms of this complaint greater control over SE factors increases fun, but only up to a point. Afterward, with more complexity, we start getting +1, +2, and +3 annoyance (Ann). And, as we know, the more the annoyance, the fewer the buyers. I think your system goes way beyond that threshold. Ten is not a magic number, but a level of complexity at around that point seems to work for SMAC, which is why I've been harping on it. And ten is not de facto imbalanced, just as 15 factors is not de facto balanced. It's all in how you use the factors. Having seen your efforts to date, I have no doubt that you could derive a balanced system using 10 factors.

I also apologize for merely critiquing and not offering a grand alternative. But I must balance my participation here against work and family, and do not have time to do more than offer suggestions on how I might improve the existing proposals. You can either hive off functions to other screens (as I propose to do with the religious factors), eliminate functions (as I propose to do with emigration), or combine them. But I, as a fairly sophisticated, long-time devotee of these games, think that the 15-factor system is just too darn much. I hope someone heeds this call, because there's a lot in these proposals that is good, and it will probably get lost in the verbiage.

[Harel]

Since we are all going to propose our finished models soon enough, I will post my own idea. This will include the modifactors I would like to use and the SE options but no numbers just yet.
I would like to have input so I could prefect the finished model.
I am not going to explain my options now. In my summed up post ( which will be very big ), I will explain every reasoning of my SE options.
You will have my model by Sat Bell.

modifators

1. Police: rename to order.

2. Militarial:
<list>[*]Increase speed of military unit production.[*]Reduce cost of support.[*]Reduce cost of spy attacks.
</lists>

3. Harmony: how well your people act like a single group.
<list>[*]Reduce revoultion when changing SE.[*]Increase cost of bribing your cities.[*]Reduce senate intervension.
</list>

4. Happiness:
<list>[*]Increase amount of happy people.[*]Reduce amount of drones.[*]Decide the speed of caputred cities assimilation.
</list>

5. Beucracy: like corruption.

6. Production: increase the speed of civilain consturction ( no food ).

6. Enviroment:
<list>[*]Reduce pollution levels.[*]Increase speed of cleaning pollution.[*]Increase food output from food tiles.[*]Increase regenration speed of forsets.
</list>

7. Growth:
<list>[*]Decide the speed in which your popultion grows.[*]Increase your max popultion amount.
</list>

8. Exprience:
<list>[*]Raise the starting exp. level of military units.[*]Give attack bonus.[*]Increase spys and units morale.[*]Increase the chance of spy attacks.
</list>

9. Loyality:
<list>[*]Reduce amigartion.[*]Makes enemy espionage/sabotage harder.[*]Increase conversion defence.[*]Less damage from atrocities.
</list>

10. Taxes: increase the amount of tax you get without increasing unhappiness.

11. Economy.

12. Relations:
<list>[*]Increase the diplomatic relations between states.[*]Get a +% chance to get what you want from alien nations.[*]Get a commerce bonus to trade routes.
</list>

13. Research

A number concept: comments maniac?

Their are several options that the prehistoric conterpart is very similar to the futuristic conterpart.
For example, a tribal assembly should give the same bonuses as true democracy, which is in essense just tribal assembly with good technology.
What if I would give them both +2 Hap, +2 Harmony ( big bonus from the start ), but give tribal aseembly -4 beucracy ( can't spread far ) and true democracy will be much more effiecent?

Solution to small civ and rate of SE change

Will all agreed that small civ can change thier nation quicker since they can better shape the people.
Well, here is a though:
I used a new modficator, called "harmony" in my options. The level of harmony decide how many turns it take you to switch SE options ( by the current level, ofcoruse ).
I think that I want to limit small nation bonus by simply giving small nations a small +harmony and big nations a small -harmony.
Very logical, as smaller nations are better conntected and got a better filling of "oneness" then bigger ones.

goverments

Depotism ( prehistoric )
->Military junta ( roman? )
-->Police state ( futuristic )
Strict monarchy/Empireship ( ancient )
->Monarchy ( middle-ages )
-->Parlimental monarchy ( modern )
Dictatorship ( roman )
->Totalatarism ( modern )
Tribal assembly ( prehistoric )
->Republic ( roman )
-->Democracy ( industrial )
--->True democracy ( futuristic )
Peppa ( rule of the pope, single religous person. Prehistoric )
->Theocracy ( middle-ages )
-->Fundemntalism ( modern )

Markets

Barter ( prehistoric )
->Currency ( ancient )
-->Stock exchange ( reniesanse )
Autarcial ( prehistoric )
->Fairs ( ancient )
-->Manorilism ( middle ages )
--->Planned ( explantion later, futuristic )
Protectionism ( middle ages )
->Mercantlism ( early-reniesanse )
-->Colonial ( late-reniesanse )
--->Nationalazation ( modern )
Guilds ( middle ages )
->Banking ( reniesanse )
-->Free market ( industrial )
--->Transnational ( modern )
Socialism ( prehistoric )
->Labor union ( industrial )
-->Communism ( modern )
--->Utopia ( futuristic )

Structure

Slider bar/options.

City state <-> Confedartion <-> Empire <-> federal

Army

Basic

City militia ( prehistoric )
->Volunteer ( middle ages )
-->Civil duty ( modern )
Levee in mass ( prehistoric )
->Drafts ( middle ages )
-->Conscription ( industrial )
Mercenary ( ancient )
->Military caste ( roman )
-->Trained ( modern )

Religon

Traditional ( basic )
Strict ( +morale, - research )
Freedom ( +harmony, -order )
Intolerance ( +order, -happiness )
Athiesm ( +research, -harmony )

Values

Passive, power, knowladge, wealth, wealthfare.

Research

Wise-man, naturalist, philosphic, academic, pratical
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Harel (edited August 19, 1999).]</font>

[Maniac]

Harel :

I agree that Tribal Assembly should have a corruption penalty and True Democracy a bonus. Just as in my new model... Have you read it?

And if there will be something like harmony decide how many turns it take you to switch SE options I think I would put it under Senate.

BTW Military Junta Roman????

Could you help me with my Army choices?
Could perhaps post your Army category now and not Saturday?
BTW draft is still used today. Or do you mean Civil Duty with that?

Have you read the Religion thread recently? We're building a marvellous religion model. And there won't be place for a Religion category.

[Maniac]

I’ll post my incomplete model too…

Government

Control

Dictatorship : +2 Pol, -2 Hap
->Dynasty : +2 Nat, +1 Pol, -2 Tax
&#61664;Parliamentary Monarchy : +2 Corr, +2 Tax, -2 Mil, -1 Sen
->Despotism : +2 Pol, +1 Pro, +1 Sen, -1 Hap, -1 Corr
&#61664;Military Junta : +1 Pol, +1 Sen
&#61664;Totalitarianism : +2 Pol, +2 Mil, +2 Sen, -2 Hap, -1 Corr

Representative

Tribal Assembly : +2 Hap, -2 Corr
->Republic : +2 Corr, +2 Pro, -2 Sen, -2 Mil
&#61664;Democracy : +2 Corr, +2 Hap, +1 Rel, -2 Sen, -2 Mil
-&#61664;True Democracy : +2 Corr, +2 Hap, +1 Eco, -2 Mil, -2 Sen, -1 Pol

Religious

High Priestship : +2 Eva, -2 Res
->Theocracy : +2 Eva, +2 Tax, -2 Res
&#61664;Fundamentalism : +2 Eva, +2 Nat, +1 Exp, -2 Res, -2 Rel

Economy

Simple

Barter : -2 Tax
->Currency : no pos or neg

Planned/Social

Autarcy : +1 Pro, +2Rel, -2 Corr
->Guilds : +2 Pro, +2 Rel, - 2 Eco
-->Communism : +3 Pro, +2 Nat, -2 Eco, -1 Corr
--->Utopia : +3 Pro, +2 Nat, +2 Env, -2 Eco, -2 Tax, -1 Corr

Colonial

Mercantilism : +1 Eco, +2 Urb, -1 Sen, -2 Rel
->Colonial : +1 Eco, +2 Urb, +1 Pro, -2 Rel, -2 Nat

Free Trade

Capitalism : +2 Eco, -3 Pol, -2 Mil
->Free Market : +2 Eco, +2 Corr, -5 Pol, -3 Env
-->Transnational : +3 Eco, +2 Corr, -8 Pol, -3 Env, -1 Sen

Structure

City State : no pos or neg
Feudal : +2 Mil, +2 Tax, -2 Pro
Imperial/Federal : +2 Corr, +2 Nat, -2 Hap
Confederate : +2 Hap, +2 Rel, -1 Nat, -1 Pro

Value

Knowledge : +2 Res, +1 Corr, -2 Exp
Wealth : +1 Eco, +1 Pro, -1 Sen, -2 Hap
Socialism : +2 Hap, +2 Urb, -2 Tax
Survival/Power : +2 Mil, +2 Exp, +2 Sen, -2 Pro

Research

Wise Men : -2 Res
Natural : +2 Env, -1 Urb, +25% Economic Research
Humaniterian : +2 Hap, -1 Exp, +25% Social Research
Practical : +2 Mil, -1 Res, +25% Military Research
Exploring : +2 Res, -1 Hap, +25% Academic Research

Army

Militia : no pos or neg

Mercenary : +?, -2 Tax}
Military Caste : ?}
}->Professional : +2 Hap, +2 Exp, -2 Mil

Levee in Mass : +?, -2 Pro
->Draft : +?, -2 Hap
->Conscription : +?, -2 Exp

Maxima and Minima without Army

Police : +2/4(*see Religion thread), -9
Military : +8, -4
Nationalism : +6, -3
Happiness : +8/10*, -7
Evangelism : +2, -0
Experience : +3, -3
Urbanization : +4, -1
Production : +6, -4
Environmentalism : +4, -3
Research : +4/5*, -2
Taxes : +4, -6/8*
Economy : +5, -2
Relations : +5, -4
Bureaucracy(Corr) : +7, -4
Senate : +4, -4

I detect some problems… Taxes, Urbanization, Evangelism.
Delete Evangelism after all?

Then it could be

High Priestship : +2 Nat/Tax, -2 Res
->Theocracy : +2 Nat, +2 Tax, -2 Res
&#61664; Fundamentalism : +2 Nat, +2 Urb, +1 Mor, -2 Res, -2 Rel

And about too many Tax and too little Urb minuses.

Colonial : +1 Eco, +2 Tax, +1/2 Pro, -2 Urb, -1 Rel, -1 Nat

But then there could be too little Nat’s.

Give Mercenary –1 Tax, -1 Nat?

[Harel]

Exactly they DONT use drafts today: they use conscription.

My army section ( btw Maniac, I AM going to keep my market options as they are. I just hope my reasoning will be explain on my detail post.


+1 Mil: +1 Support, +5% to military production. So, +4 Mil is like +2 Military industry, and not a big bonus.

army

Basic: +0/-0

Small-standing army: increase harmony and happiness

City militia: +2 Mil, -2 Exp
->Volunteer: +1 Mil, +2 Hrm, -1 Exp, -1 Ord
-->Civil duty: +2 Hrm, +2 Hap, -2 Ord

Large standing army

Levee in mass: +4 Mil, -3 Exp, -2 Hap
->Drafts: +3 Mil, -2 Exp, -1 Hap
-->Conscription: +2 Mil, -1 Exp

Mercenary: +2 Exp, -2 Loy, -1 Mil
->Military caste: +2 Exp, -1 Mil, -1 Hrm
-->Trained: +3 Exp, -2 Mil

[Harel]

Double post
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Harel (edited August 19, 1999).]</font>

[Maniac]

Harel, I had asked it already, but you didn't answer. What's Civil Duty? Explanation, examples... Switzerland?

And is Military Caste an evolution of Mercenary??

I think I'll take over your Levee and Mercenary choices.

And BTW, if you've got your detailed post finished before Saturday, post it.
I would like to know your reasons.

Question. Banking (+2 Eco?) only seems possible from the Renaissance. How then are you supposed to get +2 Eco early in the game?

My Military
+1 Mil : +1 Sup, +1 Mil (+10%, not 5%)