SOCIAL ENGINEERING/GOVERNMENT (ver2.1): Hosted by Bell

[Maniac]

To everyone :

Cause Ecotopia(=less options to get a high Hap rate) is deleted I think you should get a 'one extra aristocratian on every 4 citizens' on +4 Hap instead of +5 Hap.
I will edit my post about it.

Harel : Is army definite?

About Structure - Federal/Confederate.
I made some changes. Perhaps it is more realistic now.
Federal : +2 Cult, +2 Nat, -1 Corr, -1 Hap
Confederate : +2 Corr, +2 Hap, -2 Cult, -1 Nat.
I will explain my choices on request.
Who agrees with this changes?
If everyone does, I will edit my post about it.

Because Ecotopia(=less Urb penalties) is deleted, perhaps we should make a change to Value - Environment. Should it get a -2 Centr, a -2 Urb or a -1 Centr, -1 Urb penalty ?

[Theben]

Not to dis all your hard work , M@ni@c, but I still prefer slider bars. Allows more fine tuning & less SE choices are needed.

[Maniac]

Well mister 1157 posts who drops in here while he has never been here before, then we have totally opposite preferences.
I HATE SLIDER BARS !!!!!!!!
It totally doesn't give you a historical feeling.
CivX is a historical game, you know? Slider bars don't give me that feeling. Besides with slider bars you can't edit that much things as with my SE factors. The only thing you can edit with your slider bars is economy. Planned <-> Laissez-Faire.
That isn't really much of a choice isn't it?

[Jon Miller]

I am in fact extremely perfectionist and do not even go into offense until every city has built every building, it is because democracy and like governments is to strong

in smac planned was probably the most useful economic choice and I used power and police state too

democracy + planned + children's chreach = population boom

this is extremely nice and I use it until my cities have reached max growth for the tech

(I also use 1-1-1 trance police units)

I use power more than any other setting, I admit to only playing the second hardest level though

also my se plan besides being realistic in the value choice (what you choose to do is what sets the values of your people)

also the difference between Roman/Greek republics and the US's is taken care of in my plan besides allowing for new and exciting combinations

Jon Miller

[Theben]

go to next post ->
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited July 30, 1999).]</font>

[Theben]

Uh huh. I think you should check the OLDER SE lists, maybe you'll find my ideas.

And the reason I don't like static SE choices is IMHO they aren't realistic either. 1 year I'm democracy, next I'm a police state, then fundy in year 3, while my economics have gone from planned to free-market. And with the exception of a slight cost, no penalties!

But I can see you've really gotten into your SE ideas, and you might not be willing to listen to me. Hey, I can respect that. But it's not like your ideas can't be adapted to a slider scale.

[Maniac]

Jon Miller :

You're right. Planned is useful for pop boom. I know that. But after the bases of the cheater reached the pop limit, it becomes useless.

You use police state and power? Are you playing the Hive? Than it's logic you use Police State/Planned/Power. He has an efficiency immunity + he has an Industry bonus.
For all other factions the power Industry penalty is a killer.

I have a question about pop boom.
I'm now playing a game with Lal.
In a few cities I have Democracy + Children's Creche + Golden Age. But I don't have pop booms. Is that normal? Is it impossible to get pop boom with golden age?

You're playing the second hardest level? Do you mean Warlord-?(I've never played that low SMAC so I don't remember the name) or Emperor-Thinker. If it is Warlord I understand you think Democracy is too good. Cause on the lower difficulty levels it is perfectly possible to have good research without Democracy(I played Communism). But on the higher difficulty levels you have to be Democracy or Republic to stay ahead in research.

Theben :

I agree switching your SE choices is too easy in SMAC. Therefore I suggested that to change your Government choice a revolution is needed.
To change anything else in a different category : pay money.
But any SE change should take a few turns to take effect. So first year Demo, second Police and thirth Fundy is impossible.
If that was your only concern about SE I hope it's solved now.

[Jon Miller]

Please do not insult be Monioc,

you know what I meant emperor/thinker, what else could second hardest mean?

and no I don't cheat, or restart until I have a good starting, or creat my maps (I random), I play ironman and as many barbarrians/mindworms as possible

I play every faction and found power to be quite useful at times with differrent factions(in particular spartans)

it is real nice to have extremely high moral troops when you are building many cities

I have not played warlord since Civ1 and I only played the corresponding Smac level once when I first got the game

you attacked me instead of attacking me arguments, democracy and the like is far to strong in both smac and civ

some of my veiw on this may be because I do not mess with changing governments much and I am a perfectionist

even though I know I am being wasteful I do not change from planned when I reach pop limit early in the game and go to free market for a while, instead I just sit at planned until I am expanding again even if it is ten + turns later

Jon Miller

[Maniac]

Jon,

It wasn't my intention to insult you. I'm sorry.

I didn't mean you were a cheater. I was talking in general. I think it isn't honest that the human uses pop boom and the computer doesn't. Besides pop boom is unrealistic. If you have a size 10 city, doubling population in 10 years? Doesn't sound right.
What I mean is I think using pop boom is unrealistic not honest and therefore cheating. Unfortunately then almost every SMAC'er is a cheater. So again I didn't mean you in particular.

My sincere congratulations. I wouldn't be able to play with Power cause of the Industry penalty.

I couldn't attack your arguements anyway cause you don't have any or I don't understand them.
"I am in fact extremely perfectionist and do not even go into offense until every city has built every building, it is because democracy and like governments is too strong"
What do you mean with it? So you don't go into offense until every city has built every building, because democracy is too strong?
????????????
Please clear this one up for me.

BTW, you said you were a perfectionist. That explains a lot. Large empires desperatly need democracy and it's efficiency/corruption benefits to gather some trade. Perhaps small empires don't. I don't know.

[Jon Miller]

Monioc, sorry if I was a bit touchy

note, you yourself support my argument

paraphrase (I think) in harder diffilculty levels you have to go to democracy and republic to keep up

I don't want that, I want it to be possible to make other systems and use other systems and have them work

this my plan will allow, whenever I get back to it

Jon Miller

[Maniac]

Jon Miller :

Democracy too powerful? I still disagree.
Other governments too weak? I agree, but I found a solution for that.

Mercantilism/Wealth/Commonwealth = three choices that give you +1 Eco. So you can keep up in research and economy.
So the only SE choice that makes +2 Eco impossible is Communism. I suppose you have to use your spies to steal technology from the smarter neighbours. That +2 Nat makes sure you have a higher success rate.

Harel :

Perhaps Brainwashed or Cyborg armies should give +2 Pol and Mercenary armies -2 Nat, cause mercenaries feel less nationalistic, they just fight for the money.

In General :

Support
I think units should have a different support. Transports or Explorers won't need as much support as Battleships or Knights. This is easy to do with x10 system.
Instead of Support doing +1 Sup = -10% Support cost, +2 Sup = -20% Support; why not +1 Sup = 1 less resource/mineral needed as support, +2 Sup = 2 less resources/minerals needed...
This is an easier system than working with %.

Culture
Another benefit of high culture rate.
Your culture rate determines how long it takes for conquered cities to assimilate to your culture and cause less happiness.
In SMAC it was 50 turns. For every +Culture you have more than the city of the previous owner, the city needs 10 less turns to assimilate.
If you have a lower Culture rate, the city doesn't adapt. Means more unhappiness and increases the likelyness of revolting and forming a new civ.

Stucture
Noone has said if my changes to Federal and Confederate are good or bad.

[Maniac]

This is a post where you can look at the current SE situation.

Government :
Despotism : +2 Pol, -2 Corr
->Totalitarianism : +4 Sup, +2 Pol, -2 Hap, -1 Corr
(Anarchy : -4 Corr, -3 Nat, -4 Hap)
Monarchy : no positives or negatives
Theocracy : +2 Hap, +2 Tax, -2 Res
Republic : +2 Centr, +2 Corr, -2 Mor
Democracy : +2 Corr, +2 Cult, +1 Eco, -2 Sup, -2 Mor

Economy :
Barter : -2 Tax
->Currency : no pos or neg
Feudalism/Manorialism : +3 Sup, +2 Tax, -1 Centr, -1 Urb
Mercantilism : +1 Eco, +2 Urb, -2 Mor
Protectionism : +2 Centr, +1 Tax, -1 Dipl, -1 Corr
->Communism : +3 Centr, +2 Nat, -2 Eco, -1 Corr
Banking : +2 Eco, -3 Pol, -2 Sup
->Free Market : +2 Eco, +2 Corr, -5 Pol, -3 Env
-->Transnational : +3 Eco, +2 Corr, +2 Centr, -8 Pol, -3 Env, -2 Mor

Value :
Survival : no pos or neg
Power/Imperialism : +4 Sup, +2 Mor, -2 Centr
Knowledge : +2 Res, +1 Corr, -2 Tax
Wealth : +1 Eco, +1 Centr, -2 Hap
Environment : +2 Env, +2 Hap, -1 Centr, -1 Urb
Space Exploitation* : +2 Urb, +1 Centr, -2 Tax

Structure :
Tribal : +2 Sup, -2 Centr
City State* : +2 Centr, +2 Tax, -3 Corr, -3 Hap
Federal : +2 Corr, +2 Nat, -2 Hap
Confederate : +2 Hap, +2 ?, -2 Centr
Commonwealth : +2 Dipl, +1 Eco, -2 Pol

Army :
City Militia : no pos or neg
Reserve : +3 Sup, -2 Mor
->Draft : +2 Mil, +2 Sup, -2 Mor
-->People's Army* : +2 Sup, +2 Mil, -2 Mor, -2 Hap
Mercenary* : +2 Mor, -2 Nat, -1 Tax
->Professional : +2 Mor, -2 Sup, -1 Urb
-->Cyborg : +2 Mor, +2 Nat, +2 Pol, -4 Sup, -2 Mil

OR (better option)

CTP Military Readiness system
(then there wouldn't be a Military Industry SE factor)

Religion :
Animism : -2 Res
->Loose Polytheism : no pos or neg
Strict Polytheism : +2 Urb, +2 Sup, -2 Cult
Loose Monotheism : +2 Cult, +1 Res, -2 Dipl
Strict Monotheism/Fundamentalism/Fascism* : +2 Nat, +2 Mor, -2 Dipl
Multitheism/Religious Freedom : +2 Dipl, +1 Hap, -2 Nat
Atheism : +2 Res, +2 Corr, -2 Hap

Research :
Wise Men : no pos or neg
Nature : +2 Env, -1 Urb, Economic Science is 75%
Humaniterian : +2 Cult, -1 Sup, Social Science is 75%
Practical : +2 Sup, -1 Res, Military Science is 75%
Explorer : +2 Res, -1 Hap, Academic Science is 75%

Special
*Space Exploitation : Terraforming and colonizing Mars (see Space Exploitation Thread) is easier.
*City State : City State civs get +50% to the positive effects of their Value choice + no negative effects.
*People's Army : Riflemen unit is free of support.
*Mercenary : You can hire barbarians and nomads to join your army.
*Fundamentalism : Fanatics and Crusaders unit is free of support.

Notes

The player should be the one to decide if a SE choice becomes obsolete and disappears from the screen. So even if you can choose Free Market, you should be able to choose Banking until you make it obsolete.

Harel

If a SE change takes three turns to take effect, as I suggested to Theben, the Industry - Military Industry Cheat is partially solved.
My suggestion is that during the three turns of switching, both the negative effects of the previous and the next SE choice are in effect. This should make regular switching inadvisable.

General

Effects of Golden Age : +2 Centr, +2 Cult, +2 Nat, +2 Eco
So no +2 Urb to make early pop boom impossible. I find that as much cheating as ICS.
Later on Mercantilism/Space Exploitation/Strict Polytheism can cause +6 Urb = pop boom
Perhaps in the Modern Age the building Hospital could cause +2 Urb, making pop boom easier.
Or the wonder of the world Cloning Vats. I don't think it is that futuristic as shown in SMAC where it is available late in the game.

New Questions

What should cause a city to revolt and form a new civ?

What should be the effects of Virtual Democracy and Utopia(no money society)?

Which technologies are needed to discover which SE choices?

I want predetermined effects.
I already said a few times that the solution for the problem "What if the Phoenicians with a predetermined bonus begin in the middle of the desert?" simple is. Don't let them start in the middle of the continent.
Let the Phoenicians always start near the Ocean.
The Egyptians near a river.
Incas near large mountain range...
The solution for the "How to avoid racial wars?" is simple. Dead civs can't cause racial wars.
Diodorus Siculus is needed to make sure we don't give wrong bonuses.
These are the civs I would include in Civ3 :

Minoans, Polynesians, Sioux, Iroquois, Aztecs, Mayas, Incas, Vikings/Swedish, English, Dutch, French, USA, Spanish/Habsburg, Roman, Greek, Byzantine, Ottoman/Turkish, Russians, Mongols, Hittite, Assyrians, Babylonians, Sumerians, Persians/Parthians/Seleucids, Arabs, Egyptians, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Ghana or Benin, Indians, Chinese/Shang, Japanese/Yamato, Khmer, Celts, Zulus, Ethiopians and last but not least Hebrew.

You could turn around the way the game chooses the starting locations.
Instead of just giving random civs random starting locations, do it otherwise.
First the game determines a few starting locations and THEN the game searches for every staring location the civ that corresponds most it.

That makes 35 civs, so the apparently holy number 7 is saved.
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 01, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 02, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 02, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 03, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 04, 1999).]
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 05, 1999).]</font>

[Jon Miller]

Hello Monioc

no I am not done discussing, was just taking a break (and have to go to work in an hour so I don't know how much I'll be able to add)

I still don't see why you don't like deviding government into who is in control and how that government is controlled

I want to try a scientific merritocity or beaucracy

also your religion ideas would be distatseful for certain religions

research seems like a ok setting

army is good to but I'm not sure if cyborg might be too tech advanced (except if that is a faction in smac maybe its ok)

I see future armies being made almost wholy of computers

structure is pretty good

(I'm talking about the names not what their bonus is)

I still think your value idea is limited and that my way of setting values would be more fun and realistic (setting your vallues by following a policy for a certain number of turns)

also communism is a government + economy, the economy in it is planned, which you are missing (weird considerring how important it has been recently), also there should be a socialist economy

economy names other than that looks pretty good (names wise)

I think a good negative for some sets og se settings is that you lose control of the economy, nation, and milliatry

past example of losing control of a nation: having the senate make peace behind your back in civ2's republic and democracy

have another negative to free market be that you cannot set production in cities you can only buy units or something

setting the masses in control with a republic or democracy (and maybe someother as well)you can have to put AI personalities in control of cities and regions (what things get used, how happiness is hanndled, etc.)

certain settings also would lower your control of the military, like who are the generals, and at what level you can command them (like attack this nation, this city, this unit, follow this path when doing so, etc.)

government types like merittocracy aND BEAURACRACY would not allow you to choose which AI personalilties were promoted (by the way you could not see how they worked, you would just learn by how good they did), a merritocracy would promote an AI that was good at one thing into something it was not good at and a beaucracy would just promote those senior

Jon Miller

[Maniac]

examples of who are: military, king(you, a single person), aristocracy(nobles/rich), religious, scientists, masses, maybe others?

getting on to method of (control)

there is republic which as everyone knows is where the who votes in representatives

there is democracy where the who is directly in control

there is meritocracy where the most able of the who controls and control is based on merit

there is beaucracy (maybe some other word) where the most senior of the who controls by beaucracy

there is monarchy (maybe a better word would be parliamtery) where one is in control and the who form a group of upperclass citizens (like nobles in midddle ages)

I am sure there is more

examples

totalittarian would be who one person, monarchy as form

dictatorship would be military as who, monarchy as form

monarchy would be nobles as who, monarchy as form

communism would be beauracratic form, masses as who with socialist economic method

If I comprehend it well(which I probably don't), the who in control is : military, king, aristocracy, religious, scientists, masses

and the method of control : representatives, directly, merit, beauracracy(never heart the word before but I'll take it from you it exists), monarchy

I don't think the most able(meritocracy) or the senior(beauracracy) is a method of control. They are a who.

A monarch can rule directly(despotism) or by representatives(vazals?), so I don't think Monarchy is a method of control.

Which only leaves representatives and directly. Not much of a choice, so useless.

That makes the who : military, king, aristocracy, religious, scientists, masses, most able, senior.

Mostly there were two who's at the same time :
military king
senior aristocracy
most able scientists
senior religion
religion aristocracy
military aristocracy
king aristocracy
masses aristocracy
...

My model represents the who and the method too as I told on a previous post.

BTW, a democracy is who : masses and method : representatives. You're not the one voting the laws, right? Some senator does that for you.

who : masses and method : directly is a Virtual Democracy.

Republic is who : aristocracy and method : representatives. I've told on several occasions that I used the Roman, Italian Renaissance, Dutch Renaissance and Cromwell English Republic as examples. A country with a president is also called a republic but I count that under Democracy.

I still have a problem with your automatic value determination plan. In Civ2 because I wanted to avoid tons of pollution and because I didn't need the shields anyway I didn't build factories until I had Solar Plants. This is for the computer an obvious sign I want to be Value : Environment. However no hair on my head is thinking of becoming Environment. Cause I would like to be Knowledge until I discovered all techs and then switch to Space Exploitation to win by colonizing Mars.
The AI just can't guess your plans and your playing style.

I agree Communism could be both Government and Economy but I chose it to be an economy cause communism isn't a 'who' as you would put it.
Even if you would be Republic or Democracy you should be able to be democracy. Nothing forbids the people(=Democracy) to choose to be a communist although it is unlikely.

Planned and Socialist economies are both inherent to Communism.

And before I let control the AI a single settler, not to mention my whole army or my whole production, the AI has to be improved a lot. BTW it is still the government who gives the order to build some military, not the companies (except if you are Transnational). And I don't see a company voluntarily building a stock exchange or a library. They gain no use out of it.

There are two ways that the AI can effect your ability to go to war. A negative morale and a very negative police rate(-8 Pol).

How do you mean it would be distasteful for certain religions?

Do I exclude too much real religious names?
This is to avoid racial wars and to avoid legal problems for Firaxis.

Do I include too much religious names?
??????????

[Koyaanisqatsi]

(Note: Normally at this point, I would break the thread and start a new version, to keep it from getting too long to load. However, since UBB automatically breaks threads into pages now, and I don't have a summary to post (since I'm still waiting for some decisions to be made) I don't really see a need to break threads any more. Just didn't want people to think I'd disappeared when I didn't start a new thread. I am still paying attention . . .)