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**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 09:25

Bell, I've already posted the Police and Support SE factors on the previous thread. I find it stupid that they would be separated from the others I'm going to post here. Isn't there a way to transfer them to here.

Is it already time for a new summary? The only idea that was terminated well is about small civs.

How are you gonna summarize my posts? I included many ideas from other threads in my SE model.
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited July 25, 1999).]

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 09:58

You can find 1)Police and 2)Support on the SE/G v2.0 thread.

However I have changed Support. Unfortunately I can't edit it anymore.

I think units should have a different support. Transports or Explorers won't need as much support as Battleships or Knights. This is easy to do with x10 system.
Instead of Support doing +1 Sup = -10% Support cost, +2 Sup = -20% Support; why not +1 Sup = 1 less resource/mineral needed as support, +2 Sup = 2 less resources/minerals needed...
This is an easier system than working with %.

Any Support rate higher than -2 should give a just founded city for free 10 labor/resources.

3) Centralization

+10 : +100% Food and Resources production
...
+1 : +10% Food and Resources production
0 : normal Food and Resources production
-1 : -10% Food and Resources production
...
-6 : -60% Food and Resources production

Notes :
1)Using everythingx10 model
2)So a city normally producing 60 Food and 20 Resources should produce 72 Food and 24 Minerals with +2 Centralization.
3)Other ways to increase Food or Resource production can be Terrain Improvements(Railroad and Farm) and Technologies :
eg in the beginning of the game an irrigation yields +9 Food.
-Pottery : +1 Food for Irrigation TI.
-Horse Plowing : +1 " " " "
-Something that's called 'tweeslagstelsel' and 'drieslagstelsel' in Dutch. Two kinds of Crop Rotation.
In a tweeslagstelsel every year 50% of the fields is uncultivated. In a drieslagstelsel every year 33% of the fields is uncultivated. The 'drieslagstelsel' technology should increase irrigation production with 16%, so +1 or +2 Food.
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited July 25, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 02, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 04, 1999).]

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 10:10

4) Corruption

The higher your corruption rate, the less trade you loose by cities far away from your capital.(so no waste in Civ3)

+10 : very little corruption
...
0 : more corruption
...
-6 : very much corruption

[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 04, 1999).]

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 10:52

5) Urbanization

1)This determines how much your people tend to go from the countryside to the cities = their willingness to live in a huge city(in other words your population limit) and it determines how much rows must be filled to let the city grow(similar to SMAC).

2) I think cities should continue to grow even if there is no aquaduct or similar building. My Urbanization is based on it. The drawback would be that all people not having sufficient clean water(=Aquaduct, Sewer System) or living space(=Apartment Blocks, Arcology) become Revolutionists = very unhappy citizens.

3) city size 7 or 8 : Aquaduct needed
12/14 Sewer System( not the modern one that came much too early in Civ2, but something like the Roman Cloaca = sewerage.
20 : Apartment Block
30 : Arcology
40 : Super Arcology? or perhaps there should be a building for 40, to similate population pressure.

4) My SE model is constructed so you can't get a population boom until the Modern Age. Cheating tactics like switching to democracy, set your luxuries to 100% for a few turn and pop boom are impossible.

5) A granary in Civ3 should be like in Civ2, and not like a Children's Creche in SMAC. Otherwise you could get pop boom early in the game.

+6 : Cities have a population boom every turn if sufficient Food is available in your city/region.
+5 : +5 Population limit; only 5 rows must be filled to let a city increase in size.
...
0 : normal
...
-5 : -5 pop limit; 15 rows must be filled.
-6 : no population growth.

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 11:40

6) Culture

1)Culture determines how easy it for a Clerics to convert population (and units?) to your faith.

2)If a civ has a lower culture rate, his cities become automatically converted to your religion, if he has a trade route with one of your cities (or simply by geographical location?). If the capital is converted you get a higher Diplomacy rate. If that civ attacks you, the citizens of the converted city become unhappier = lower happiness rate...

3) Your culture rate determines how long it takes for conquered cities to assimilate to your culture and cause less happiness.
In SMAC it was 50 turns. For every +Culture you have more than the city of the previous owner, the city needs 10 less turns to assimilate.
If you have a lower Culture rate, the city doesn't adapt. Means more unhappiness and increases the likelyness of revolting and forming a new civ.

4) Culture affects your attack strenght(=evangelism) in religious debate/combat. Per +Culture you get +12.5% in combat. Per -Culture -12.5%.
The happiness of the population also affects the strenght.
Aristocratian : +25%
Worker : normal
Proletarian : -25%
Revolutianary : -50%
Animist : -100%
Animists are citizens without an advanced religion.

5)Your religious defense(=conviction) is determined by Nationalism.

6) Can't say numbers. Religious debate still busy on the Religion thread.

7) Numbers are relative. Means the effects are also determined by the other civ's Culture rate.

+? : Conversion easier; faster than normal assimilation

-? : Your population gets converted; no assimilation if lower culture
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 08, 1999).]

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 13:56

7) Nationalism

The Iron Curtain Wonder makes emigration impossible and renders your civilization completely immune to any diplomat/spy action.

+6 : No emigration possible; +5 Spy/Diplomat Morale; no bribing possible; Spy/Diplomat have 100% chance of success; -75% cost of Spy/Diplomat actions; +75% conviction(=religious defense)
+5: Very very low emigration; +5 Morale; no bribing; -75% cost; very very high success rate; +67% conviction
+4 : Very low emigration; +4 Morale; no bribing; -50% cost; very high success rate; +50% conviction
+3 : Low emigration; +3 Morale; +75% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions; -50% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions; high succes rate; +37% conviction
+2 : Lower emigration; +2 morale; +50% enemy cost; -25% your cost; higher success rate; +25% conviction
+1 : Slightly lower emigration; +1 Morale; +25% enemy cost; -25% your cost; slightly higher succes rate; +12% conviction
0 : normal
-1 : -1 Morale; -25% enemy cost; +25% your cost; slightly lower succes rate; -12% conviction
-2 : -2 Morale; -50% enemy cost; +25% your cost; lower succes rate; -25% conviction
-3 : -3 Morale; -50% enemy cost; +50% your cost; low success rate, -37% conviction
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 08, 1999).]

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 14:22

8) Morale

Necessary for this social factor to work, is off course that the Morale distinction of SMAC is used.

This SE factor does not determine the Morale of Spies and Diplomats.

In the modern age there should be atrocities like SMAC for certain war crimes or crimes against your population(Martial Law).

+5 : world opinion does not punish you for atrocities because they don't expect anything else from you; +5 Morale
+4 : +4 Morale; no world opinion punishment
+3 : +3 Morale; less world opinion punishment
+2 : +2 Morale
+1 : +1 Morale
0 : normal Morale; you alone decides about war and peace
-1 : -1 Morale; 25% of the time the senate decides to sign a truce or treaty; 25% of the time the senate forbids you to sneak-attack an enemy
-2 : -1 Morale; positive combat modifiers halved; 50% senate restrictions
-3 : -2 Morale; + modifiers halved; 75% senate restrictions
-4 : -3 Morale; + modifiers halved; always senate restrictions

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 14:44

9) Research

Without SE changes you can set your amount of trade used for science to 70%.

I said on the other SE thread that I want simultaneous research in each category. Therefore you should be able to allocate a certain amount of your research point to one category. Normally this should be 50%.

+8 : +80% Research; you may set your trade allocated to science at 100%; you may allocate 100% of your accumulated science to one category.
...
+5 : +50% Research; trade 100%; category 100%
+4 : +40% Research; trade 100%; category 90%
+3 : +30 Res; trade 100; cat 80
+2 : +20 Res; trade 90; cat 70
+1 : +10 Res; trade 80; cat 60
0 : trade 70%; category 50%
-1 : -10% Research; trade 60%; category 40%
-2 : -20 Res; trade 50; cat 30
-3 : -30 Res; trade 40; cat 25
-4 : -40 Res; trade 30; cat 25

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 15:23

10) Economy

In SMAC +1 Economy was +1 Energy/base. That may be a nice bonus in the beginning of the game. But later in the game it means nothing. The x10 system can correct this.

I give commerce bonuses to some economy rates. I don't know yet what they should be because there not making real progress on the Economy thread. Only loose ideas. Perhaps if you trade resources the AI should give you more than normal. Or you should get an extra bonus for trade routes passing your territory. This requires the CTP trade system.

I give +30 trade/square to +5 Economy. Some might say that makes it's too hard for not-Free Market civs. I disagree.
1)The Superhighways improvement in Civ2 did the same thing. Yielding a bonus to Republics and Democracies, but not to all other govs. x10 solves that problem and also gives a +50% trade/square to not-free market civs.
2)I included more SE choices giving an Economy bonus, so even not-free market civs can get the +10 trade/square.

Civilization's capitals should get +10 trade.

+7 : +24 trade/square; +4 commerce
+6 : +22 trade/square; +3 commerce
+5 : +20 trade/square; +2 commerce
+4 : +14 trade/square; +2 commerce
+3 : +12 trade/square; +2 commerce
+2 : +10 trade/square; +1 commerce
+1 : +2 trade/square; +1 commerce
0 : normal trade production
-1 : -10 trade in capital; -1 commerce
-2 : -2 trade/square; -2 commerce
-3 : -3 trade/square; -2 commerce
-4 : -4 trade/square; -2 commerce

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 15:34

11) Environment

There should be two types of pollution : industrial and nuclear pollution. More about this on the Terrain/TI thread.

Environment determines Industrial Pollution.

+6 : less pollution
...
0 : normal pollution rate
...
-4 : more pollution

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 15:49

12) Happiness

The higher your happiness rate, the more cities you can control before additional proletarians appear.

7 : Happy people
...
+4 : one extra aristocratian every 4 citizens
...
0 : Normal people
...
-4 : one extra proletarian every 4 citizens
...
-9 : Unhappy people
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited July 29, 1999).]

**Jon Miller** · July 25, 1999, 16:02

hi all

there has been some suggestion that civs should tend toward democracy or something like that to show that people like personal freedoms

I agree that people like personal freedoms but think that there are other matters that affect even more what the people wish

one of these is happiness rating, the germans loved hitler until he lost them a war because he kept there happiness up, if you were to suggest a more democratic setup the people wouldn't be interested in following you

the ssame has been true through the ages

another factor is fear (or something), russia did not have people who wanted it to change for a long time (after Stalin had messed it up) partly because of this (and some people did beleive in it)

also what government and social structure the people want is affected by what is successful, not what gives the individual more power (nessarily), that is the reason why so many governments have changed towards republics the last few years, its because the US and other top notch nations are republics

the same goes for other parts of social engineering

for example, in the great depression when it looked like our current social setup was not working there were a lot of forces that wanted something different and the US was close to revolution (and did have to change it social settings)

there were facists, communists, and many other groups, the US looked a bit like pre-Hitler germany

so the main things that should guide what people want should be happiness and what the leading nations social structure is, the social force towards freedom should be the weakest of the three if it is included

it should be hard to change away from the setting of the leading nation (even if it is you) and easier to change towards the social settings of the leading nation

maybe have an additional social setting of who is in control: the masses, the rich, the religious, the scientists, and the nobles (maybe same thing as the rich?)

(maybe also special interest?)

of course as events of the previous week tell us even when the masses are suppose to be in control, the rich/nobles will still be in control (as that whole JFK jr thing proved)

maybe society is just prone to making a rich/noble class, it occured in the USSR (and is arguably the source of that nations downfall) and in the US and in France after their revolution which occured a few years after ours (it ruined them too)

maybe there should be some truly revolutionary government (and social) structures in civ3 or at least ones like a true democracy (enabled by the net)

one thing I'm afraid is that there will be bias towards personal freedoms and democracy (I admit it makes the people happy but there are some other serious weaknesses among them that the nation begans to start dilly dalling and not doing anything)

also it is possible to have personal freedoms and not have democracy or republic and the social engineering should reflect that

this has gotten a lot larger than I originally planned for it to be

Another way that the US is weak (in social engineering) is in that right now if we were attempting to become a nation we would not have the guts to take for ourselves (like from the indians) in order to become a nation nor could we go to war with other nations for territory

if we had the same social engineering we do right now at the US's founding there would be no US

if we had the same social engineering we do now in 1940, Hitler would control Europe and the Japanese would probably control the US

there were protests over kosovo even and we did not lose one man, think about what would occur if we did

(by the way, the US is not alone in acting in this fashion, many if not most first world nations do, if any third world nation got the arms to fight a first world one (with a few exceptions) the first world one would lose in no time)

that occurance was clearly a chaNGING of the social engineering by the people (no ruler or set of rulers would want to be so weakened in everything)

the only good thing (from a rulers prospective) that I can see from the change in US social engineering is that it is more ecofreindly, nobody can say that US ciitizens are more happy now than they were in good economic times arround 100 years ago

the weakness (in the nation) cannot even be connected to the good economy now (how about the bad economy in the 70s

don't get me wrong, I like the US now in someways better than the US of a hundred or even fifty years ago (and not just because we now have computers) but I can not help but notice that despite the US being the most powerful nation, internally we are a lot weaker

end rant ;~)

Jon Miller

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 16:10

13) Diplomacy

To make this a valuable SE factor, Diplomacy should be upgraded in Civ3. SMAC was good, but it can always better.

A high diplomacy rate gives you improved relation with foreign nations. Low diplomacy rates the opposite.

Other civ's mood to you should also be improved if you have similar SE settings. Totally different settings give you a bad relationship.

Good mooded civs should be more willing to trade.

Your votes in your multistate-coallition should be affected by your diplomacy rate. Positive diplomacy rates give your more votes. Opposite also true.

To avoid the Diplomacy facor will be totally useless in multiplayer, make it also affect the cost of building Diplomatic improvements like the UN, and also make embassies give less information if you have a low diplomacy rating.

In Civ2 other civ's mood to you suddenly got worse in 1000 AD. This discourages making alliances.

You should be able to ask a civ to not trade the technologies you give him to another civ. In my case it would encourage technology trading and making gifts to other civs.

+6 : good diplomacy; more embassy information; more votes
...
0 : normal diplomacy
...
-4 : bad diplomacy; less embassy information; less votes
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 02, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 03, 1999).]

**Maniac** · July 25, 1999, 16:18

14) Taxes

Normal amount of trade you can allocate to Taxes is 70%.

If you have eg a tax income of 20 gold and a Tax rate of +2, you get 22 Gold.

+8 : +80% taxes
...
+3 : +30 tax; tax allocation 100%
+2 : +20 tax; tax 90
+1 : +10 tax; tax 80
0 : normal Tax income; tax 70
-1 : -10 tax; tax 60
-2 : -20 tax; tax 50
-3 : -30 tax; tax 40
-4 : -20 tax; tax 30

Announcement

SOCIAL ENGINEERING/GOVERNMENT (ver2.1): Hosted by Bell

SOCIAL ENGINEERING/GOVERNMENT (ver2.1): Hosted by Bell

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