SOCIAL ENGINEERING/GOVERNMENT (ver2.1): Hosted by Bell

[Maniac]

Want to post something I forget cause I shorcutted my summary post. Golden Age/We Love The Days and their effects.

+2 Nat, +2 Hap, +2 Pro, +1 Eco, +1 Bur.

As you see, no growth bonus to make that unrealistic pop boom impossible in the early game.
+2 Nat makes bribing more difficult.
+2 Hap makes the (conqered) city assimilate faster.
+2 Pro cause they are happier.
+1 Eco cause better economy, better trade
+1 Bur as in Civ2

[Harel]

Sorry, sorry, sorry...
Bell if it's not to late, I will post the second section of my model today.
If i see i can't finish it by nightfall, i will post what I have ( with no explnations ).

Maniac, about your market options: hehehehehehehehhe! Guild as closed? Communism evolved from mercantlism? How is that even remotly close to history?

And btw, I am absoultly correct about mercantlism and fairs.

[Theben]

Maniac,

"Happyness can be seen as how much people want to live in a city... In this case it is the biggest factor in immegration/emmigration."-ember

As said in the ECONOMICS thread. This is why I would prefer growth be affected by a HAPPINESS CE instead of imm/emmigration CE. Likely anything that affects migration is due to a perception of a better life in the destination of the migrant. So the unhappy people emmigrate to the happier lands (immigrate). Plus the happiness CE affects many other useful modifiers.

Bell, go ahead and post my sliding scale but I'm starting to think it's not the best idea. Focus instead on the idea of having the button choices lined up similar to the scale so the HAPPINESS indicator works when switching between CEs, and definitely include my suggestions on how CEs should work.

Between the HAPPINESS description, CEs, SE choices listed earlier, and the HAPPINESS indicator I've said everything I have to say here, but I don't want it lost due to the volumes of input by others.

[Maniac]

Harel :

Yes, I know about the problems in my Economy category and I mentioned them myself in my updated (Bell, be sure to include the updated post and not my old one) post.

And if you won't listen to good advice about mercantilism and fairs while several people said you were wrong, I can't help you.

"Fairs are not ancient, they were a product of the middle ages, the beginnings of the ‘break out’ from a strictly local to a regional and international trading system. Similar ancient institutions would be the Agora or Forum, the central market of Greco-Roman cities, or the Bazaar market center of the middle eastern cities."

Diodorus agrees with me.

And I gave a better explanation of mercantilism-colbertism in my updated post. Exporting products is only a small part of the mercantilist strategy.
Sid Meier and hopefully for the sake of Civ3 also Brian Reynolds are history buffs and they will see that you made many mistakes in your explanations of your SE choices. So they won't accept your faulty Economy category, I think.
Just want to warn you...

Theben :

First, I wonder why you addressed me about migration in this thread.

Secondly, I don't have a SE Immigration/Emigration factor (do you mean with a CE a SE factor?). I do have a Growth factor, but that doesn't affect migration at all.

Thirth, I don't think there is a population boom in Africa because they are happy.

Fourth, however I agree that Happiness should affect migration. But except just the happiness migration should also be affected by
1) ONLY in the very ancient age by the food production of the city.
2) Only in the modern age by the resource production (jobs) of the city.
3) In all times the trade production should affect im/emigration.

[Harel]

First off, Maniac, it's very clear you don't understand what Fairs are about. The egyptain and maians, for example, used Fairs system: every city stood by itself, by the main cities hold a bazar with goods from all over the nation. The way I define fairs ( read it ), fairs are more then 1500 years more ancient then what you said.
About mercantlism: I know what I am talking about. Sad thing you don't.

My model is historly accurate. It has fault, yes, but it least it's accurate! what nation ever evolved from a mercantlism to communism? And how can you say communism is a planned market? It's completly free! It just limited the salaries!
Mercantlism was replaced by colonialism, and indeed that what I said.
No nation, either, evolved from manorilism to guilds. They existed AT THE SAME TIME, at different nations. Not to mention that saying that guilds are closed market it the most amusing thing I heard for a long time.

never mind. I double checked my facts, but never mind. Guess it's true what they say about belgiums.

for Bell:

didn't manage to finish it competly, but still here is the second section.

Post 2 of 2

2. Market

Simple ( Barter -> Currency -> Stock exchange )
Closed ( Autaracial -> Fairs -> Manorilism -> Planned )
Directed ( Protectionism -> Mercantlism -> Colonial -> Nationalazation )
Social ( Social -> Labor union -> Communism -> Utopia )
Free ( Guilds -> Banking -> Free market -> Transnational )

<u>Simple</u>

Barter -> Currency -> Stock exchange

Logic: The simple markets reflect the "Basic" option at SMAC. This market option boost the belief that the goverement simply select the most widely accepted form of trade, and then allow the people to use it at will. It's not, however, free economics as they dis-originzation and lack of any structure doesn't allow the market the harvert the revenue gotten from an almost free market.
Strategy: means to serve the people who don't wish any direction of their market, and wish to have a no-effect bonus.
<list>[*]Barter as a form of economy is your first option in the game. Barter is the concept of item trade: you give me X cows, and I shell give you my own Y stones. The lack of any accepted trade ratio between the items cause many problems, mainly to the ruler taxe collectors, that when in doubt tended to take too much of the owner items.[*]Currency replaced bartering somewhere in the pre-greek era. Many of the big ancient empires had currency, like the Pheonican, Minoun and Egyptains. The national coins were not always valuable as they contains very low amounts of gold. They did represent a fixed amount of value, set by the goverement. Very quickly, fixed exchange ratio between foreign currency was also established, which gave a big boost to extrenal trade as well as the internal one.[*]Stock exchange was first established in the early Reinessance. It represent a step higher the currency: items and companies were represented by "stocks", a fictional, arbitery value that it's actul current value shifted according to demand. While currency were very static, and many times didn't represntive the true state of the market, the flexise stock exchanges offer quick and easy trade in any resources or holding.

Barter: -1 Eco
->Currency: no effects.
-->Stock exchange: +1 Tax

<u>Closed</u>

Autarcial -> Fairs -> Manorilism -> Planned

Logic: Closed markets existed along most of human culture. Those markets rarely dealt with external trade, and tended to be competly self supportive. This is true to the most early and primitive tribes, all along to middle age europe, and proceeding to numerous modern nations. Even due that trade and economy takes such a key rule in the modern world that no nation is foolish enough to ignore the many benefits, many rulers tended to stay on thier own, fearting for spies and drop in industry.
Strategy: closed markets boost powerul industry over commerence and relations with other nations.
<list>[*]Autarcial markets are one of the oldest markets in history, and is available right from the start of the game. Autarcial ( self supportive ) markets are compelty cut off from outside markets, including thier own. Every market ( city ) tends to her needs along, and produce everything the local markets needs by him self. Thier is no, or very little, trade and relations between the different markets of the civilazation. Since the citizen of one city almost never travel outside thier town and see the rest of the city, they hardly feel citizen of the nation.[*]Fairs were introduced before the ancient empires, but were most popurly used when civilzation dropped to a brinking halt in the early middle ages. An important improvemnt over the isolated autracrial markets: annual, or half-annuls ( twice a year ), a fair was sent to the near town or several close cities. The fair moved from town to town, introducing rare items create in every standalone market to the inhabitants of the entire reigon, and even the entire nation. The fairs were a critcal link between the isolated cities. With pirates and barbarians, a large fair was the only way to safely travess the distance between two isolated cities. The fairs linked the nation, boosted commerece by introducing rare items, and generated enough revenues to pass a poor family for many monts after the fair.[*]Manorlism was first introduced as a large-spread system on the 12th centaury. It was a much more orginized form of closed markets. While fairs were created indenptantly by a few local cities, any real direction of the market was non-existant. The king, or ruler of the fair market had almost no control over the markets, beside sending a few tax collectors to bring him whats due. There was no central market. Manorilism is a system of indenptant markets ( cities ), that all directly report to the goverement ( king/ ruler/ president ). The trade between the markets is much better established: instead of fairs, goods kept coming and going between the various cities. The manorlist market was still close to external trade and kept him self-supportive: but with better regulation and control, each market assisted each other by reugulating the required resources amounts between the near by cities. Many local barons signed pacts with other barons to share certain resources each other needs, and both assisted the federal goverement when time arrised ( by troops, money and any resources required ).[*]Planned economy is the pinnacle of evoultion of any market that wish to be competly self supportive. All cities act like one, huge unified market. With the help of powerful computers, and programs that forsee future resources demand, the resources of the entire nations can be adjusted and regulated to perfection. While many nations use such programs today, thier is still a few years needs to pass to reach a technology advanced enough to intrast the entire market planning in her hands.

Autarcial: +2 Prod, +2 Hrm, -2 Loy, -3 Rel
->Fairs: +3 Prod, +1 Hrm, -1 Loy, -3 Rel
-->Manorilism: +3 Prod, +2 Mil, -1 Eco, -3 Rel
--->Planned: +4 Prod, +2 Beu, +1 Mil, -2 Eco, -3 Rel

<u>Directed</u>

Protectionsim -> Mercantalism -> Colonial -> Nationalzation

Logic: As the empires on Earth grew bigger and bigger, many nations found the closed market system un profitable. Trade with other empires has become a vital resource of free cash: some nations even based thier entire economy on trade, like the pheonicans. But, needless to say, that mass amount of money trading hands between empires with no supervision of the empire made the king/ruler very uncomfertable. Traders were a path for espionage and terrorism, not to mention that external imports tended to harm national products. When importing goods becomes a cheaper and better option that buying the local goods, the home industry suffers. And no ruler wanted that. So, while some kings choosed to let the market shape it self, many kings choose to take several measured that will insure the continual of thier state. Most european powers along this millennia used one system or the other to shape all external trade, imports and export, to a form best fitting thier vision.
Strategy: boost effeiceny and allows you to build very large empires, but economy takes a dive.
<list>[*]Protectionism is the name for a economical shield policy. On this systems, the goverement set quota to certain key resources. Any imports that exceed that quota pays a very large import fine. By this system, the goverement kept regulting the market, gains a nice dividand, and insure the proftiably of local products. While every nation uses protectionist rules to some extent ( the US limits textile export, for example ), many middle ages nations uses protectionist market plans for many years to keep tabs on the market. However, protectionism as a system dates back to the roman era.[*]Mercantlism is more of a economical strategy then an option. It was the hallmark of the economical model suggested by the French economist Colbert in the 16th centaury. Mercantlism is an evoultion of protectionism, a "cheat" that was used in the 16th and 17th to gain free money out of helpless nations. With the development of Stock excahnges, smart brokers "swamped" the forgien stock with a huge amount of items: timbers, wool, what ever it took. While the cost dived for zero, a quick buck was made by quickly selling and buying different currency, and make a fortune with the currency ratio.[*]Colonial was ment to replace protectionism and Mercantalism. As the import quota proved far too limiting to trade when used so widely, goverements choosed to cancel the import fines and try to direct the market by other means. As the conquest of the new lands proved to be more and more lucrative, in the 17th centaruy, the goverements choosed to sponsor "formal-companies", that by them the ruler shape the market according to his liking. The british, for example, did not conquer India for the crown or the land: they conquered it for the British India company. It was the company that ruled over the far east, not the crown. But the king financed all those companies and controled them in-directly. In our modern world, try to vision IBM and Microsoft peons in the hand of the American goverements.[*]Nationalzation is both a more free market, and a more controled one then Colonial, at the same time. While in the colonail era the king financed the companies and directed them by messages, in this market options most major companies are nationalized. The goverement does not spend money on the companies, which makes the company more free to choose her heading, but in contrast, the board of directros and CEO are selected by the goverements and are subject to immdiate changes at will. Nationalzation should be available in the late modern era.

Protectionism: +2 Beu, -2 Eco
->Mercantalism: +2 Beu, +2 Rel, -2 Eco, -2 Tax
-->Colonial: +3 Beu, +2 Prod, +1 Mil, -3 Eco, -3 Hap
--->Nationalazation: +4 Beu, +2 Prod, +1 Tax, -3 Eco, -2 Rel

<u>Social</u>

Social -> Labor union -> Communism -> Utopia

Logic: A social market is one who attunes himself to the need of the public, not the industry or the economy. The happiness of the people comes before any other consideration. There should be a very clear distinction about "psuedo" social markets and true social markets. A free market with social tendenacies is NOT a true social market: it's best described with free market and "wealthfare" as value ( see below in Values ). When a goverement choose to embark on a social market option, it attunes all it resources to better fead and cloths the entire people.
Strategy: while social goverements usally takes high amount of taxes, most of them are returned in the form of luxaries: so in fact the actul amount of social Tax is preety low. In contrast to the lower taxes, you get a very happy bunch of people.
<list>[*]The first social market were used allready in the roman era, but they were never very popular. In many ways, socialism is a form of primtivie nationalazation. But while a nationalize market ( see above ) is just the goverement way to achieve control and high effiency, a social market nationalaize the main industaries to insure that every citizen gets the bare minimum to surive. Farms belong to the goverement, and so those the food transportion. Food is quotered so that every person get atleast what he needs to live. The main companies, such as water, communiction and electricty all belong to the goverement. Large subsidies ensure that every person can buy those nessecaties. Job in the nationalaize companies is free to all and sponosored by everyone. Can't find a job? The goverement will always find room for in a farm of gov factory, earning a good wage. Child upkeep is heavly sponsored, and so those health care and operations. It widely differ from social free markets, that only keep loose watch on key items. And more, no social free market every nationalaized the food production: that was left to free enterprise.[*]Labor union is an industrial imporvement over social markets. While social goverements always take care, generaly, of the worker class, a large, solid, goverement supported labor union insure the workers gets those little things that the goverement can't remember, or doesn't care to remember. Wages are fairer, and while hampering the industry, strikes always, in the end, benefit the entire society.[*]Communism markets were first developed in the modern era. While communism, at it's pure form, never existed in the world: equal wages, equal conditions, equal people, some nations really came very close. However, as the industry slackened in a pure communism market, the goverement took preliminary steps to insure the loyality of the people. Farmers got benefits to insure the food supplies, and acadamic and militarial centeral people got better conditions and treatment. The goverement still inforced the shared wages to all: a general would get the same wage as a privite. But the general got more alcohol provision, for example, bigger flats, more food and better school for his childern. It was not the perfect society it should have been: the human greed is a mighty force, and without a cash insentive the people became lazy. But it was a good step in the right direction.[*]Utopia is a futuristic option, the most advanced SO in the game, but in close observation is more and more probale. With fusion power and nano robots the future holds infinite power and wealth. Any item, food, buildings, cloths, could simply be created with no cost, just time. With time, every item you require could be provided. The transformation of decade minerals would make any element frequent enough to lose it's value. All material possesions become meangless: you only pay for things that can be duplicates, man power. See a movie used with actors? Pay credit. Resturant with real waiters, learn in school with real teachers, you pay for those items. In fact, the only reason you will need to work at all is to earn some luxary credits. While this may seem futuristic, it's not the case. It's more the possible. All ready modern robots and computers show us a future where most man-made work is redudenant. ( Personal advice: The SF book "Forver peace", the hugo winner of 98' by Joe Haldeman is a PERFECT example of what I have in mind ).

Socialism: +2 Hap, +2 hrm, -2 Tax, -2 Mil
->Labor union: +3 Hap, +2 Hrm, -3 Tax, -1 Mil
-->Communism: +3 Hap, +2 Hrm, +2 Loy, -3 Tax, -3 Rel
--->Utopia: +3 Hap, +3 Hrm, +3 Loy, +2 Env, -3 Tax, -3 Eco, -3 Rel

<u>Free</u>

Guilds -> Banking -> Free market -> Transnational

Logic: when someone comes to the concept of free markets, he must remember they are never competly free. It was the lack of any minimum and maximum to certain key items, no set minimum wages, the concept of income tax, all of those things used by capatlist nations to keep some tabs on what on what is going on the market that led to the world-wide crash of 1923. Free market types before that were when appointed offices and/or orginization had a mandat from the crown to deal with the trade more or less as how they so fit. While free markets are the most popular market type in the modern world, it was not really the case in the past. Indeed, many ports and other small polis ( city-state ) used trade guilds and later originzed banking to trade freely with the rest of the world. Even the roman empire, another the benevolent rule of some kind dictators, in the height of her evolution, gave guilds enough power that - for that brief time - it could be considered a free market.
Strategy: Boost a powerful economy, but loose control and order on your nation.
<list>[*]Guilds date back to the origin of many ancient empires: even to the Aztec and the Egyptain. But in those times, they hardly controled enough power to be considered a valid market option. Guilds exprienced a brief glance of power in the roman era. But only in the middle ages did the guilds truly blossmed. Guilds, as a general rule, are a group of members that had gain a formal permission for the state to control freely, and further carry the interst, of a specific craft. The ship-wrighter guilds, the oldest of all in the known history, was used by the goverement many times in consturction contract of ships ( for example, the Athenaian league ). The guild had a free reign, an almost compelte autonomy on the buissness of that craft. While the power was not equally distributed, and reserved soley for the guild members, those few gained free rule of trade, as guilds usally created prolonged pacts with other guilds. Togther, they could almost by-pass the goverement competly, trading commodities from one another freely, and export and importing whatever they wished, for wherever thier buissness took them. Later, as trade guilds and alliances grew stronger ( Jeneboze, the trade city from which columbus came, the Hansa - a trade alliances that used trade guilds to sail the far seas, the venosian city-states ), the use guilds were the only way that one could freely trade items.[*]Banking also dates back to the depths of history, to the Babylonians, but only in the reinessance did banking became such widly spread that they transformed the entire economy. The invention of paper money, the growing economical power of the cities ( when before the distributed system of manorilism was used ), all contributed to the need to create a solid market place in the cities. Banks safe-guarded money, but they did more then that: you could buy bonds, stocks, everything via the banks. The banks were a source of free, unlimited wealth, and everyone could use it. The old system distibuted power in the hands of the nobel ( or the guild members, in another case ). Banks allowed anyone, with a buck ofcourse, to trade. Ofcourse, that banks hold a formal permission of the crown to do so, and only a very few ( but very big ) banks were created. It lasted as a system till the days of the industrial era ( eh, Mr. lorry, the eternal banker... one should only read the description of the Tellson bank to have such a keen picture of the entire escapde! )[*]Free markets, formerly estbalished in the industrial era, was created when banks no longer needed the formal permission of the crown to build, create and deal with money: and so the buissness of making money from money thrived. So numerous those banks became, that each hold very little power ( not the federal bank, ofcourse ), that thier power structre crushed and tumbled, moving power in the hands of enterprisers and companies. Very soon, companies changed the market as they saw fit. However, the goverement ( after some fatal incididents ), did set some laws.[*]Transnational is the evolution of free markets. From companies, evolved coporations, and from them, unions. And very soon, those unions started to branch to every other free market nation ( and some who aren't ). The idendity of companies became competly separted. Most of the time, is just doesn't matter. Is IBM truly an american company? And honestly, does it matter? Transnational is a modern option, that even further enhance commerence, but does open the room of espionage.

Guilds: +2 Eco, -2 Ord
->Banking: +2 Eco, +2 Rel, -2 Ord, -1 Mil
-->Free markets: +3 Eco, +2 Rel, -2 Ord, -2 Env
--->Transnational: +4 Eco, +3 Rel, +2 Prod, -3 Ord, -2 Loy, -2 Env

3. Values

Passive
Survival
Happiness
Power
Wealth
Knowldge

<u>Passive</u>

Passive is the starting value option, and acts like SMAC option: survival, meaning an option that niether gives any bonus or any minus. It is used by those who don't wish any changes in their society, and just doesn't approve of any of the options.

Passive: No effects

<u>Survival</u>

Survival got a preety strange treatment in SMAC. Survival is a second option that is available in the start of the game, but Passive is default. Survival exactly puts your nation in the state of fortification, and rationing. It bests fits countries that are on the state of a long, prolonged war.

Survival: +2 Prod, +2 Loy, -2 Eco

<u>Happiness</u>

Happiness is yet another of a more social society. It goes hand in hand with social market options ( much like wealth goes well with Free market ), but its indeed a value. It represent the society basical view that the happiness and well being of it's citizens is the most fundemntal requirement of the state, and acts accordingly.

Happiness: +2 Hap, +2 Prod, -2 Mil

<u>Power</u>

A country that select power as value is one that puts the military as the most important part of thier society. The military industry encorparte most of the people, and the needs of the public is second to the army requirement. While this makes any army quite strong, the society suffers greatly from this oppresive value.

Power: +2 Mil, +2 Exp, -2 Hap

<u>Wealth</u>

To make money from money, as much as you can and as long as you can. As strange as it sounds, wealth can be selected with every market option, not only free market. Yes, including social. While the way to define "wealth" in a communist market is different, a wealth communism society is one made of people that are eager to achieve what ever rank, or position, that could be offer them ( while the money gaining option is overruled ). Needless to say, that such a go-getter society create distinct class that very soon leash on one another.

Wealth: +2 Eco, +2 Tax, -2 Hrm

<u>Knowladge</u>

The search for knowladge as a goal is a truly benevolent mean, and many nations supported the search for knowladge ( and, hopefully, some pratical militarial aplications ). A scientifical nation tends to excel at researching and inter-national relations, as other nations both tend not to fear research nations, and because that scientifical coporations make things easier. Math IS the universal laungue after all...

Knowladge: +2 Res, +2 Rel, -2 Exp

4. Structure

City state
Confedaration
Federal
Empire

This section defines the structre of your power, and how it spreads along your empire. The more power you give to the regional command, the more power is delegated, the harmony factor increase. People act more like a society when they are in a small, closed, friendly group. If every city stands alone, then the people will be more contacted to one another in that society. Also, since delegated power takes control and offload work out of central command, city state is much more efficent in terms of beucracy. However, isolated nations tends to alienate the people against the state. A federal nation, for example, will be much more known that a city state one. The more related the people will feel to the state, the more loyal they will be to her. In even worse, they less contacted they feel to the state, the less taxes they will be willing to spend,

<u>City state</u>

City state reflect that every city on your nation is independtatly ruled and controled. In fact, the general goverement is very scarce. The bonds that tie the invidual cities is very weak. While it can, for example, represent the early Greek empire, it relates also to the feudal structure of the middle ages. Every city ( belongs to a certain lord ), controls his own city and is only limitled contacted and responisble to the crown. In democracy, in means the citizen elect the mayor of thier city which has almost complete autonomy. The mayor concuil meets every time and then to dicuss general strategy. They elect a representative mayor ( you ), but he has very limited power.

City state: +2 Hrm, +2 Beu, -2 Loy, -2 Tax

<u>Confedartion</u>

In a confedartion state, every region/state/city is very independat, however they are directly under the control of the federal goverement. While the federal goverement almost never interving in regional matters, the federal power is very real and obivous: not nearly like the "virutal" control of the gov in city states. It defines the inter-relation in the USA, for example. Every state had independt goverenor, but it is the president that has the over-ruling power in the end. In a democray, the citizen both elect the regional goverenor, the federal senate and the federal president.

Confedaration: +1 Hrm, +1 Beu, -1 Loy, -1 Tax

<u>Federal</u>

Most nation, modern and old, were federal. A federal structure simply means that all power is in the hands of the central goverement. The regional manager, or mayor, has very limited power and is directly responisble to the federal state. In a democracy, the people elect the mayor, the federal senate and the president. However, since the mayor rarly solve the local problems, the citizen will raise thier problem in the 2 senate ( -1 Harmony makes the senate intervention worse ).

Federal: +1 Loy, +1 Tax, -1 Hrm, -1 Beu

<u>Empire</u>

While not frequently used today, many nations used the empire structre option for many times. The federal govrement is the one who elect the regional ( city ) overseer. The overseer tends to the gov command and intersts, and rarily care enough for the local problem. In a democracy, the citizen elect the senate and president, but it's the cooliation that elect the regional managers ( mayor/overseer ). The citizen can send complaints and request a swap in management: but the control on who ruled over thier local problem is gone from thier hands.

Empire: +2 Loy, +2 Tax, -2 Hrm, -2 Beu

5. Army

Regular ( Regular )
Citizen ( City militia -> National guard -> Civil duty )
Masses ( Tribal levee -> Forced drafting -> Recruitment )
Expert ( Military caste -> Mercenery -> Proffesional )

<u>Regular</u>

While being a sort of a "Default" option, the Regular army option only becomes available in the roman era. Regular army is well deciplined and eqaully well equipted and trained. It dervies from volunteers from all over the country. They are originzed into large battalions, undergo basical training and are positioned in a certain sector, when they constantly pass rigious training. While not having an extream proffesionaly in comabt ( like military caste and the rest ), they are, most of the time, much more diciplined then the other troops in the field. The dicipline is a key requirement in using large-scale field strategy, that gained the ancient armies so much sucess. The roman empire, Alxender invasion force, and many other nations along history, all used the regular army option.

Regular: +1 Exp

<u>Citizen</u>

City militia -> National guard -> Civilian duty

Logic: Citizen armies are recruited civilians that serve and train in the community. Those volunteering civilians act as neighbourhood watch, aid and replace in need the police, and are mass recruited in war as standard army. It was most of the time by small nations, that had no real ability to defend themselfs from a large invasion anyway.
Strategy: Local army forces make the populace very orderly and loyal, but the combat ability of the force tends to be very poor.
<list>[*]City militia is one of the first things you can research. It was used by many early nations/empires, until the size of thier standing armies reach a certain size when they forced to change army options. The city militia is requruited from able volunteers from all over the local region. They are not properly equiped, but undergo decent training, more then can be said about Tribal levee. The city milita also works as police, increasing the order in the city.[*]National guard was a vast imporvement over the city militia in the roman era. The national guard in Rome, for example, was well trained and was also used as the city fire man. The national guard was based on nation wide volunteer, adapting proper training and accepted standards, and with good connection between the local national guard stations for quick activion. In time of war, the national guard could act like a single unit, and not a commonwealth of different militia from different cities.[*]Civil duty date back to the Reinnessanse era. All citizen are required to donate X years of civil duty: either in the army or in helping the state in different ways. The civilain army is properly trained and acts almost like any other army, except the numbers and cost are much greater. Switzerland is allready using this system from many years now.

City militia: +2 Ord, +1 Loy, -1 Mil, -2 Exp
->National guard: +3 Ord, +1 Loy, -2 Mil, -1 Exp
-->Civil duty: +3 Ord, +2 Loy, -3 Mil

<u>Masses</u>

Tribal levee -> Forced drafting -> Requrietment

Logic: Many times along history, mainly in times of war, the state declared a mass drafting of the entire populace. This resulted is a lot of cheap, easy to support units. But since they are shipped with little, or no training, needless to say the combat value of those troops is shakey at best. And even more, the result of shipping the nation finest without any training to the war fronts greatly dis-comfort the people.

Tribal levee: +4 Mil, -3 Exp, -2 Hap
->Forced drafting: +3 Mil, -1 Exp, -2 Hap
-->Requrietment: +3 Mil, -1 Hap

<u>Expert</u>

Military caste -> Merceneries -> Proffesional

Military caste: +2 Exp, -2 Mil
->Merceneries: +3 Exp, -2 Tax
-->Proffesional: +3 Exp, -1 Mil

6. Religoun

Tradional
Strict
Intolerance
Freedom
Athiesm

<u>Tradional</u>

Tradional: No effect

<u>Strict</u>

Strict: +2 Exp, -2 Rel

<u>Intolerance</u>

Intolerance: +2 Ord, +2 Loy, -2 Hap, -2 Res

<u>Freedom</u>

Freedom: +2 Hap, -2 Ord

<u>Atheism</u>

Atheism: +2 Res, -2 Hrm

7. Research

Wise-man
Naturalistic
Academic
Humanitarian
Practical

<u>Wise-man</u>

Wise-Man: no effects.

<u>Naturalsitic</u>

Naturalisitc: +2 Env, -2 Prod*

*Biology techs at 75% cost.

<u>Academic</u>

Academic: +2 Res, -2 Exp*

*Universaties bonus increased by addional +25%.

<u>Humanitarian</u>

Humanitarian: +2 Hap, -2 Mil*

*Social techs at 75% cost.

<u>Pratical</u>

Pratical: +2 Mil, -2 Res*

*Prototypes are at free.

</u>D. Summary of the model ( numbers )</u>

Goverements

Anarchy*: -3 Hap, -3 Prod, -3 Loy

Despotism: +2 Ord, +3 Mil, -2 Beu, -2 Hap, -2 Loy
->Military autocraty: +2 Ord, +1 Mil, -2 Hap
-->Police state: +3 Ord, +2 Loy, -3 Hap

Dictatorship: +2 Loy, -2 Beu
->Totalatirms: +3 Loy, +2 Mil, -3 Beu

Dynasty: +2 Tax, -2 Eco
->Monarchy: +2 Tax, +2 Prod, -2 Eco, -1 Hrm
-->Parlimental: +3 Tax, +3 Prod, -2 Eco, -2 Hrm

Priestship: +2 Hrm, -2 Rel, -1 Res
->Emmisary: +2 Hrm, +2 Tax, -2 Rel, -2 Res
-->Popedom: +3 Hrm, +2 Tax, +1 Loy, -3 Rel, -2 Res
--->Theocracy: +4 Hrm, +2 Tax, +2 Loy, -4 Rel, -2 Res

Tribal assembly: +2 Hap, +2 Hrm, -2 Ord, -3 Beu
->Republic: +2 Hap, +1 Eco, -2 Ord, -1 Hrm
-->Democracy: +2 Hap, +2 Eco, -2 Ord, -1 Mil
--->True democracy: +2 Hap, +2 Hrm, +2 Eco, -2 Ord, -2 Mil

Market

Barter: -1 Eco
->Currency: no effects.
-->Stock exchange: +1 Tax

Autarcial: +2 Prod, +2 Hrm, -2 Loy, -3 Rel
->Fairs: +3 Prod, +1 Hrm, -1 Loy, -3 Rel
-->Manorilism: +3 Prod, +2 Mil, -1 Eco, -3 Rel
--->Planned: +4 Prod, +2 Beu, +1 Mil, -2 Eco, -3 Rel

Protectionism: +2 Beu, -2 Eco
->Mercantalism: +2 Beu, +2 Rel, -2 Eco, -2 Tax
-->Colonial: +3 Beu, +2 Prod, +1 Mil, -3 Eco, -3 Hap
--->Nationalazation: +4 Beu, +2 Prod, +1 Tax, -3 Eco, -2 Rel

Socialism: +2 Hap, +1 hrm, -3 Tax
->Labor union: +3 Hap, +2 Hrm, -3 Tax, -1 Eco
-->Communism: +3 Hap, +2 Hrm, +2 Loy, -3 Tax, -2 Eco, -1 Rel
--->Utopia: +3 Hap, +3 Hrm, +3 Loy, +2 Env, -3 Tax, -3 Eco -2 Rel, -1 Exp

Guilds: +2 Eco, -2 Ord
->Banking: +2 Eco, +2 Rel, -2 Ord, -1 Mil
-->Free markets: +3 Eco, +2 Rel, -2 Ord, -2 Env
--->Transnational: +4 Eco, +3 Rel, +2 Prod, -3 Ord, -2 Loy, -2 Env

Values

Passive: No effects
Survival: +2 Prod, +2 Loy, -2 Eco
Happiness: +2 Hap, +2 Prod, -2 Mil
Power: +2 Mil, +2 Exp, -2 Hap
Wealth: +2 Eco, +2 Tax, -2 Hrm
Knowladge: +2 Res, +2 Rel, -2 Exp

Structre

City state: +2 Hrm, +2 Beu, -2 Loy, -2 Tax
Confedaration: +1 Hrm, +1 Beu, -1 Loy, -1 Tax
Federal: +1 Loy, +1 Tax, -1 Hrm, -1 Beu
Empire: +2 Loy, +2 Tax, -2 Hrm, -2 Beu

Army

Regular: +1 Exp

City militia: +2 Ord, +1 Loy, -1 Mil, -2 Exp
->National guard: +3 Ord, +1 Loy, -2 Mil, -1 Exp
-->Civil duty: +3 Ord, +2 Loy, -3 Mil

Tribal levee: +4 Mil, -3 Exp, -2 Hap
->Forced drafting: +3 Mil, -1 Exp, -2 Hap
-->Requrietment: +3 Mil, -1 Hap

Military caste: +2 Exp, -2 Mil
->Merceneries: +3 Exp, -2 Tax
-->Proffesional: +3 Exp, -1 Mil

Religoun

Tradional: No effect
Strict: +2 Exp, -2 Rel
Intolerance: +2 Ord, +2 Loy, -2 Hap, -2 Res
Freedom: +2 Hap, -2 Ord
Atheism: +2 Res, -2 Hrm

Research

Wise-Man: no effects.
Naturalisitc: +2 Env, -2 Prod*
Academic: +2 Res, -2 Exp**
Humanitarian: +2 Hap, -2 Mil***
Pratical: +2 Mil, -2 Res****

* Biology techs at 75% cost.
** Universaties bonus increased by addional +25%.
*** Social techs at 75% cost.
**** Prototypes are at free.

[Maniac]

Update from 3. Structure and all the rest after it...

3. Structure

City State : no pos or neg

I gave this starting option no positives or negatives.

Feudal : +2 Mil, +2 Tax, -2 Gro

Feudal lords are mostly also the military ruler of the region and the king can also ask a military addition of his vassals for war = +2 Mil.
Feudal lords may ask money to their vassals on many occasions = +2 Tax.
Little big cities and oppression of the inhabitants = -2 Gro.

Federal/Imperial : +2 Bur, +2 Nat, -2 Hap

A central power makes sure all the taxes etc goes in the treasury and little gets lost on the way = +2 Bur.
A central government makes sure the citizen feels a citizen of the nation = +2 Nat.
However a central government and less power for local regions makes people unhappier = -2 Hap.

Confederate = +2 Hap, +2 Rel, -1 Nat, -1 Pro

More political freedom for the regions = +2 Hap
More freedom means more interaction with other nations = +2 Rel
The citizens feel less citizen of the nation = -1 Nat.
Some production may get ‘lost’ to local authorities = -1 Pro.

4. Value

Survival/Power : +2 Mil, +2 Exp, +1 Sen, -2 Pro

Survival and Power have the same effects.
Survival and Power requires the support of an army. This is accepted by the general public as a necessity = +2 Mil.
Troops are willing to fight for their country and the army is well trained = +2 Exp.
If survival is at stake (Democracy) or simply because the ruling class is in favor of war and power (Republic) the peaceful members of the Senate may be silenced = +1 Sen.
However a large portion of the production goes to the army = -2 Pro.

Socialism : +2 Hap, +2 Gro, -2 Tax

Support for everyone including the poor makes people happier = +2 Hap.
Less poor means less death and better living conditions = +2 Gro
However to support the poor a large part of the tax must be used = -2 Tax.

Wealth : +1 Eco, +1 Pro, -2 Hap

The nation/upper class/people want to get rich = +1 Eco.
Therefore an optimum production of things is handy = +1 Pro.
However the poor become poorer and a very unhappy proletariat is created = -2 Hap.

Knowledge : +2 Res, +1 Bur, -2 Exp

Research is supported by the government or research is free in the country = +2 Res. Example is the 19th century when they believed with science everything can be solved.
Better technological applications allow better connections and bureaucracy = +1 Bur.
Spoiled with technological things the people may become weak and decadent. More advanced countries are also more likely to be target of espionage = -2 Exp.

Environment : +2 Env, +2 Rel, -1 Gro, -1 Pro

Environmental care decreases pollution and may increase forest production if harvesting is carefully planned (eg Finland) = +2 Env.
‘Pure nature’ things are more likely to be bought by consumers. Also the trees are of better quality. If a country doesn’t cause pollution, it certainly will be assumed good in the international community = +2 Rel.
Random house building and exploitation of nature for new buildings is disapproved = -1 Gro.
Industry suffers if it’s bound at all sort of rules. No nuclear plants. Food production may suffer without genetic manipulation and pesticides etc = -1 Pro.

5. Research

Wise Men : -2 Res

Superstition and men who assumes themselves ‘scientists’ may decrease technological advance.

Natural : +2 Env, -1 Gro, 75% Economy

Same reasons as Value – Environment

Humanitarian : +2 Hap, -1 Exp, 75% Social

Humanitarian makes people happy = +2 Hap, but Humaniterian people are less willing to kill other people = -1 Exp.

Practical : +2 Mil, -1 Res, 75% Military

Enough military applications, but normal science suffers.

Exploring : +2 Res, -1 Hap

In the time of humanism scientists began to seek proof for what they researched or thought.

Army

Tribal Levy : no pos or neg

Everyone in the tribe who can carry a rock fights. I would let exist this option during the entire game as a no-effect choice.

Military Caste : +1 Exp, -1 Mil
->Mercenary : +2 Exp, -1 Nat
-->Professional : +3 Exp, -2 Mil

When weapons become specialized, the fighters become more specialized. Bronze, being a relatively expensive and rare commodity, resulted in Military Castes or aristocracies wth bronze weapons doing the fighting while the rest of society supported them. Homer calls bronze the ‘noble metal’ because swords/armor is made from it, while iron is the ‘common metal’ because it was used strictly for tools (in his day, they hadn’t learned how to temper and anneal iron for swords/armor, but it was much cheaper than bronze for everything else).

Mercenaries can also be foreign, decreasing Nationalism.

The government hires troops, pays them all the time, trains them and equips them. This is very expensive in ‘up front’ costs, but gives potentially the best-trained most constantly available force.

Forced Draft : +2 Mil, -1 Hap
->Recruitment : +3 Mil, -2 Exp

Many times along history, mainly in times of war, the state declared a mass drafting of the entire populace. This resulted is a lot of cheap, easy to support units. But since they are shipped with little, or no training, needless to say the combat value of those troops is shakey at best. And even more, the result of shipping the nation finest without any training to the war fronts greatly dis-comfort the people.

Civic Duty/Citizen-Soldier : +1 Hap, +1 Nat, -1 Pro
->Draft/Conscription : +2 Hap, +1 Nat, -2 Exp

When the society develops a prosperous middle class, the weapons diffuse or the society of a central state provides the weapons, and you get the civic duty or Citizen-Soldier. This is the classic Roman or Greek phalangist: a large number of citizens who can afford the panoply of weaponry or who have the ‘leisure’ time for training on the state-supplied weapons.
Basically, the population takes up arms as needed. The result is loss of production and economic power since workers/producers are in the military, but a lot of support and no loss of happiness because the ‘nation is in arms together’. Ancient nomadic or barbarian groups use this, also ancient city states.

This is a modern, or early modern (late 18th century) form, in which a portion of the population is called up every year, trained, then returned to civilian life. When war starts, these Reservists can be recalled, vastly expanding the effective military. The percentage called up each year and the percentage retained permanently as a Professional training cadre are variable. At one extreme,a tiny cadre and a huge ‘draft class’ approaches the Swiss system, while for most of the 19th and early 20th century, the peak of this system, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the total active military were trainees each year, and the numbers were adjusted to train virtually every male reached ‘military age’ each year (roughly, 1% of the total population) and keep all the men of military ages (roughly, 10% of the population) in either the active or reserve forces.

D. The summary of the model.

1. Government

(Anarchy : -3 Hap, -3 Nat)

Dictatorship/Tribal Chieftainship/Warrior-King : +1 Pol, -1 Hap
->Despotism : +2 Pol, +1 Pro, -1 Hap, -1 Bur
-->Absolute Monarchy : +2 Pol, +1 Mil, +1 Sen, -2 Tax, -1 Bur
--->Totalitarianism : +2 Pol, +2 Mil, +2 Sen, -2 Hap, -1 Bur
->Dynasty : +2 Rel, +1 Pol, -2 Tax
-->Parliamentary Monarchy : +2 Tax, +1 Bur, -1 Mil, -1 Sen

Tribal Assembly : +2 Hap, -1 Bur, -1 Sen
->Republic : +2 Bur, +2 Pro, -2 Sen, -2 Mil
-->Democracy : +2 Bur, +2 Hap, +1 Rel, -2 Sen, -2 Mil
--->True Democracy : +2 Bur, +2 Hap, +1 Eco, -2 Sen, -2 Mil, -1 Pol

High Priestship/Faraohship/God-King : +1 Nat, +1 Pro, -1 Res
->Theocracy : +2 Nat, +2 Tax, -2 Res
-->Fundamentalism : +2 Nat, +2 Gro, +1 Exp, -2 Res, -2 Rel

[/b]2. Economy[/b]

Barter : -2 Tax
->Currency : no pos or neg
-->Joint-Stock Companies : +2 Rel

Autarchy : +1 Pro, +1 Mil, -1 Bur
->Manorialism : +1 Pol, +2 Mil, -2 Pro
-->Guilds : +1 Eco, +2 Gro, -2 Env

Mercantilism : +2 Tax, +2 Pro, -2 Rel
->Communism : +3 Pro, +2 Nat, -2 Eco, -1 Bur
-->Utopia : +3 Pro, +2 Nat, +2 Hap, -2 Eco, -2 Tax, -1 Bur

Capitalism : +2 Eco, -3 Pol, -2 Mil, -1 Sen
->Free Market : +2 Eco, +2 Bur, -5 Pol, -3 Env, -1 Sen
-->Transnational : +3 Eco, +2 Bur, -8 Pol, -3 Env, -2 Sen

3. Structure


City State : no pos or neg
Feudal : +2 Mil, +2 Tax, -2 Gro
Federal/Imperial : +2 Bur, +2 Nat, -2 Hap
Confederate : +2 Hap, +2 Rel, -1 Nat, -1 Pro

4. Value


Survival : +2 Pol, +2 Sen, -2 Eco
Power : +2 Mil, +2 Exp, -2 Pro
Socialism/Happiness/Welfare : +2 Hap, +2 Gro, -2 Tax
Wealth : +1 Eco, +1 Pro, -2 Hap
Knowledge : +2 Res, +1 Bur, -2 Exp
Environment : +2 Env, +2 Rel, -1 Gro, -1 Pro

5. Research


Wise Men : -2 Res
Natural : +2 Env, -1 Gro, Economy tech advances at 75% of normal cost
Humanitarian : +2 Hap, -1 Exp, Social tech advances at 75% of normal cost
Practical : +2 Mil, -1 Res, Military tech advances at 75% of normal cost
Exploring : +2 Res, -1 Hap, Academic tech advances at 75% of normal cost

6. Army


Tribal Levy/Levy in Mass : no pos or neg

Military Caste : +1 Exp, -1 Mil
->Mercenary : +2 Exp, -1 Nat
-->Professional : +3 Exp, -2 Mil

People Army/Forced Draft : +2 Mil, -1 Hap
->Recruitment : +3 Mil, -2 Exp

Citizen-Soldier/Volunteer/Civic Duty : +1 Hap, +1 Nat, -1 Pro
->Draft/Conscription : +2 Hap, +1 Nat, -2 Tax

E. Other SE related topics

Golden Age/ We Love The … Days

+2 Nat, +2 Hap, +2 Pro, +1 Eco, +1 Bur.

As you see, no growth bonus to make that unrealistic pop boom impossible in the early game.

+2 Nat makes bribing more difficult.
+2 Hap makes the (conquered) city assimilate faster.
+2 Pro cause they are happier.
+1 Eco cause better economy, better trade
+1 Bur as in Civ2, less corruption

Religion

Some want Religion to be dealt with in SE, but as you can read in the Religion thread, the Religion model there doesn’t allow a SE Religion category.

Time frame

I'll type here in what time I think certain choices should appear.

Available at the start :
(if Civ2 starts in 4000 BC. In an interview Jeff Briggs has told otherwise)

Dictatorship, Tribal Assembly, Barter, City State, Survival, Wise Men, Tribal Levy

These are also the choices you have at the start.

Available in Ancient era :

Despotism, Dynasty, Republic, High Priestship, Currency, Autarchy, Capitalism, Imperial/Federal, Wealth, Socialism, Natural, Practical, Military Caste(very early), Mercenary(later), Forced Draft, Civic Duty, Power

Available in Middle Ages :

Theocracy, Manorialism(very early), Guilds(later), Feudal

Available in Renaissance :

Absolute Monarchy, Parliamentary Monarchy, Joint-Stock Companies, Mercantilism, Humanitarian, Exploring

Available in Industrial Revolution and Modern:

Totalitarianism, Democracy, Fundamentalism, Communism, Free Market, Confederate, Knowledge, Professional, Recruitment, Draft, Environment

Available in Near-future :

True Democracy, Utopia, Transnational


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 26, 1999).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 27, 1999).]</font>

[Cartagia the Great]

Here is a reposting of an idea I posted in the Diplomacy thread. maybe it'll get some more discussion here as well

Many people have put forth their ideas for diplomacy in this thread, and I have helped. However, I believe that I would like to try and post down my entire thoughts on how treaties should work. I apologize if this has already appeared.

let us start out with the war between the Russian Empire and the Republic of Wisconsin(I always add them to the game, so sue me :P). The war progress, with neither side able to take each other's capital, but Wisconsin is deffiantly on top. In Desperation Russia sends a message whihc reports that they would be willing to discuss a treaty.

Wisconsin ,war weary, and with unhappiness due to this, agrees to this. Immediatly they go to the 'Treaty Screen'. This would be the screen which would allow you to set the peramiters of the treaty. They would be divided into 4 catagories


Government:
Economic:
Social:
Politicle:

GOVERNMENT:

The Government header more or less speaks for itself. This would impose on the other nation the government of the winner's choice. Waisconsin could demand that Russia becomes a Republic, Monarcy ect.

ECONOMIC:

Once again this is rather self explanitory. This is where Wisconsin could demand a certian monetary exchange to Russia, forcing them to pay tribute either per turn, or in one lump sum.

SOCIAL:

This one is a bit more intersting. Under this catagory one can set certian permaiters dealing with the people in the other Empire. For instance, Wisconsin could ahve a large minority of Chinese in their Empire who are on good terms with the government. They could demand that all Chinese under Russian government are sent into Wisconsin. Like wise they could also say that certian nationalities, such as the Romans should be opressed.

Tarrifs could also be demanded, as could differant building resrictions in cities.

POLITICLE:

This might prove to be the most intersting of catagories, and the easiest way to contain another nation if need be. It would be under here where you owuld demand the status of protectorate from another nation, as well as cut up their empire and take certian cities away.

Those are, however, the most common things. Other options would be available as well. For instance, you could demand that a nation take up alliances with other nations.

the most intersting option, in my opinion, could be the creating of other nations. In this area one would be able to create new nations, giving them names, leaders, and politicle stances. They could either be based on a prior ethnic group(in which case a majority of the people in this nation must be of the ethniticity choosen or atleast contain a few of thier cities)

One could also create a ficticiouse nation such as the Philonthroper Republic. All people owuld hodl their old ethnic ID, but would devleope into that nationality after a while.

Each nation you create, you would be able to set up it's boardres, government, it's leaders and it's relations with other nations.

Now, you might ask yourself why you would wish to do such a thing, and not jsut annex the entire nation. First of all, you may feel that you don't ahve the streangth to hold on to the rest of it, and you wish for your enemy to be strong enough to resist OHER nations. Also you might only have wanted to free a religion or ethnic group. Finally, heaving to strict of a treaty might very well destroy your relations with other nations.

Also the other nation coudl reject the treaty, and dicerking could go on(FUN!), but there is always thei dea that if you want peace enough, you'll take what you can get.

[Maniac]

A bit late. Nobody will respond to it, but I will ask it anyway.

Should I delete the Bureaucracy bonus of Communism and instead increase the Bur penalty of Totalitarianism to -2?

And Harel, don't insult me please.

I have my opinion, you yours. I perhaps don't agree with it, but I won't begin to say things like "Guess it's true what they say about belgiums."
Please clarify this and post what they say about Belgians. Then we can all laugh about what you say if it are Belgium jokes at least. (You mean Belgians right? Not Belgiums? Another type error?...)
If it aren't jokes about Belgium we can discuss about it. BTW I hope for you it are jokes, cause you said yourself on the Religion thread that RACISM is the biggest sin in your country.

Goodbye Harel.

Bell

If it depended on me alone whole section C. of my summary post may be deleted. My only fear is that Firaxis will then look to Harel's crappy explanations of his choices.
Perhaps you (or I) could replace section C by

"M@ni@c totally disagrees with Harel's explanation of his choices. If you don't understand the effects M@ni@c gave to certain SE choices of him, please ask explanation on the SE thread, but don't look at Harel's summary post."

I would like to keep the B. section. I know it contains things that aren't 100% SE, but I think that if Firaxis sees whole my explanation together instead of in parts on every thread, they will be more likely to accept it.
Eg that -25% cost for certain Research categories is totally unbalancing if there isn't simultaneous research in every category.

BTW, Bell, I have checked out the older SE threads a while ago and there you regularly posted something to add to the discussion.
In SE v2.x you never did. Why?
I would like to know your opinion about the available SE options.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

About what's in and what's out on the summaries: I'm going to have to balance them somehow, but I'm still working on how to do it. At this point, my oh-so-carefully worked out (yeah, right) time frame is slipping, so while I would usually post a message and ask people what they think, I'm going to have to make some decisions on the fly as I'm doing it.

BTW, Bell, I have checked out the older SE threads a while ago and there you regularly posted something to add to the discussion.
In SE v2.x you never did. Why?
I would like to know your opinion about the available SE options.

Several reasons. 1st, is time. The IT shop where I work lost the 2 of the 4 senior techs at the begining of the summer, and I've had to take up a lot of their workload while we're looking for replacements, so I haven't had a whole lot of time lately (by the way, the same reason why the summary is behind schedule.) 2nd, the older threads bogged down more, and sometimes I would post to keep them moving when there was nobody else around. 3rd, this version has been a lot more of the nuts and bolts type stuff, whereas the other one was much more conceptual. Conceptual thinking is really my specialty, and my brain starts to get fuzzy dealing with lots of details. And, I thought that other ideas should be put forth. If I get really involved in something, I tend to have an, erm, damping effect on all ideas other than my own, and over the years I've gotten pretty effective at it, to the point where I usually either assimilate other ideas or kill them off. I didn't really want to do that in this thread.

I know, more than you wanted to know, but I like to be comprehensive.

Oh yeah, to everyone, leave the non-thread stuff outside. That includes the racial stuff, and name-calling, and general nastiness. Thanks.

[Maniac]

I have edited my post another time. Made a difference between Survival and Power.
Survival has +2 Pol since even under Capitalist (or FM) economies people aren't unhappy if survival is at stake. So less unhappiness of units abroad.

So Section A and B of 'August 23, 16:27', Section C replaced by what I said in 'August 26, 18:46 and finally Section D and E (renamed to C and D) of 'August 26, 16:07' should be in the summary post.

Just edited this post to say that I tweaked the Relations, Taxes and Bureaucracy factors a little bit.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 27, 1999).]</font>

[Harel]

Crappy explantions? Hrrrm... Never mind.

Bell, I was led to belive that you will quote me directly! And ask you explicitly to simply copy and paste my post! Firaxis could never understand, for example, why I choose to separte dictatorship from despotism without reading my post.
I spend hour on this! I ask you on last time: copy it as it is. Delete NOTHING, edit NOTHING. This is my personal request.

Maniac, if you don't agree with my "crappy", but accurte, explnations, write your own. I must inssist that you will keep mine.

Bell, if you intend some sort of comparsion between my own and Maniac model

( for example, in Markets, harel suggested... bla bla bla... and maniac bla... bla... bla.. ).
maniac posted no explantion of his very "weird" logic on some of his options, while I did. Our models should NOT be thus compared.

and maniac. Seriously now. No name calling. Agree or disagree with my SE reasoning, you can understand it. Ok, so you don't approve of guilds->banking->free market, for example. You have problems with my explaning fairs, for example. Thats ok.
But you can understand the logic of why I said guilds->Banking, cause I explained it on my model.
Guilds, in my opinion, gave free market to the members of the guild, banking improve upon this with giving free market to the banks members, and free market is the open-to-all free market. Circuler logic, true. But atleast you can follow it.
Le'ts view your manorilism->guilds. Yes, you explained what they ARE. However, what possible connection to they have? you didn't explain you logic at all: what made you choose those two options.
Mercantlism->Commnuism. ok, you carefully gave a nice, false explantion of mercantlism. And of communism. But HOW are they related? The logic is not apparent and is not explained anywhere.
I took the time to make sure the logic of my model is clear. You don't have to accept it: I don't fully accept it either.

Therefor, Bell, once more please quote me directly.

[Maniac]

Never mind. Never mind. I do mind. If you don't want me to mind, don't say/write it. I was (am and will always be, I'm not really a forgiving person) angry.

I also spent hours on it. So don't think you're the only one who has put a lot of work in it. And I have written my own explanation, although sometimes they're shorter.

And as you can read in the Questions to YinShining post, there will be a real summary made by Bell that includes all ideas and then there will be a section that will quote you and me. That's very good to me. Actually, I would like some comparison. After all, the names in our models are very similar. And I'm convinced that Firaxis will use things out of both models anyway. Eg I'm sure they will use Pacifism. And I'm sure they will use Colonial. But I hope they will use my factors and on the points our SE choice names are the same, they will use my effects.

Yes, I understand your unhistorical logic.

And some connections are indeed bad. I said it myself in my Economy introduction. No problem. Just delete the ->'s. Here I got the feeling that everyone agreed that there would be too much choices. So I agreed with ->. But in www.firaxis.com there are people that want as many choices as possible. Personally, I don't have a problem if they would be deleted.

I am right about mercantilism!!!!!!! I DEMAND to know where you got your explanation of mercantilism. I, for my explanation of Mercantilism, have translated (bad) a partial quote out of the thing I had closest to me, Encarta, the article Colbert, Jean-Baptiste.

"You don't have to accept it: I don't fully accept it either."

What do you mean? You don't fully agree with your own explanations?!?

And Harel, you'll be glad to hear this, in a few days, you'll be rid of me. No more annoying maniacs around (and no post anymore on the SE thread).

OK, Bell, sorry I change my opinion again, but could you again quote my entire posts? And perhaps you could say in your own summary that in my model the ->'s aren't really needed. In fact, they would solve some "weird logic" problems.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

This post has now been sanitized for your protection

OK, new decision. I'm going to do the summary as I think it should be done, and post the results at the end, and I'm not going to care if anybody is happy with it. Then, if attitudes haven't changed and there's enough people that one can replace me, I'm going to wash my hands of this whole project. I haven't been around these kind of attitudes since I taught chess to 6th graders! And they weren't even this bad!

I've tried to appease the various (what, two, now?) people invovled in this thread, but for crying out loud people, you're acting like a bunch of kindergardeners! The point isn't to advance your own system, or to make sure you get the proper credit, or to attack anybody who doesn't support you. This isn't politics folks, it's a game! The point of this effort is to create ideas that we think would be good for a game. This is a big brainstorming session, in essense. Then we give the ideas we come up with to the people who actually <u>know how to build games</u> and they decide what has merit and what doesn't. It's a great concept, but I hate to tell you this folks, not one of us is going to get our name printed in the manual, or listed in the credits, or even thrown on a text file hidden on the shipping CD. The point of this isn't us, it's the game at the end. If you would remember this for just five seconds before you typed out your latest whine of a post, we wouldn't have these problems. As is, I've had enough of it. I'll post the summary when it's done, and not before, and it will look remarkable like I think it should. What do I think it should look like? If you look at my posts (you know, read them, and remember them, and maybe even believe that when I write something I mean it) then you know what I think the summary should look like. If you haven't heard or believed what I've said all along, then I guess you'll just be surprised when the summary is posted.

Oh, and just so people know, I am an equal opportunity flamer, and this applies to several people in this thread. The last post just happened to be the straw that broke the proverbial dromedary's back.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Bell (edited August 29, 1999).]</font>

[Harel]

Maniac, did colbert invent mercantlism? No. Does he own the system? Hardly. So what makes you think that Colbertism is EXACTLY like mercantlism? And why you look for Colbert for explantion on merctanlism? They are connected: colbert supported the system. But he doesn't own it! You said:

This is an economical system that is perfected by the French economical ‘minister’ Colbert who lived in the 17th century. He reformed taxation. He eradicated abuses, united the tax system, redivided the burden of taxation and bettered tax inning. The result was a serious increase in tax income = +2 Tax.
He stimulated the industry and trade by establishing state owned companies. He also stimulated private companies. He controlled and regulated production, built a trade fleet, set up Indian Companies, made better connections on land and water = +2 Pro.
He made stronger the international competition position by stimulating the export and reducing the import by raising toll (import of raw materials excluded), by forbidding export of wheat to have low food prices and he developed the colonies. This form of planned economy that existed already a long time on city level but was new on national level in Europe, is called Mercantilism and in French form Colbertism. However, since an increase in national trade was thought to be possible alone at cost of other nation and since there was a close connection between state and economy, Mercantilism was equal to a cold war sphere = -2 Rel.

Most of what you said are simply reforms colbert made. You are still following your basic error: mistaking colbertism with merctanlism. A metaphore: a writer writes a novel, and after it a short story. Does it mean that every novel must follow a short story as a general note? Hardly.

I will say this for the last time: merctanlism is, ONLY, the economical strategy of dominiating the forgien markets by floods the markets with exports and controling the currency rating. NOTHING MORE. Everything else colbert did has nothing to do with merctanlism. Colbert widely supported merctanlism: but he also supported other, un-related things. Trust me on this one, PLEASE!

And regardless of what it is, you still didn't explain how it even vaguly connected to commnunism. You explantions are not shorter, they are non-existant. You only detailed what your options WHERE, not how they relate to one another.

and BellM: here here.

[SWPIGWANG]

My Head is Spining. Make the SE a little
simpler please.
The point of the game is NOT to give someone a head ache.