BRC's game

[Dominae]

Ok, I've had a chance to look over your game. Again, you seem to be doing quite nicely! I do have some comments to share, however. Please remember that these should not be taken as criticisms, but rather as things that I would do differently. I trust you'll use this info as you see fit.

As for anyone else reading this, I hope that my comments will be general enough to perhaps help you out as well (in case you have similar questions).

Ok, on to it:

1. City Spacing

Yup, still a problem. The reason why this is an actual "problem" in this particular game is that you're favoring poorer city-sites just so that they can fit into the perfect, minimal tile-overlap pattern. Take the city of Byblos, for instance (sorry, no screenshots): it would be far better to have it next to the River, where it would benefit from extra Commerce and the ability not to require an Aqueduct. Also, cities such as Elephantine would benefit from being next to the coast, where they could build Harbors and turn those Coast tiles into self-sufficient Food-producers. Your overall growth in those cities is actually lessened in the long run, because you can never truly benefit from the water.

2. Growth

I notice you're focusing on Commerce when choosing which tiles to work in a particular city. I assume this is because you're anticipating a major Knight upgrade sometime soon (both the Greeks and the Celts have the prerequisites). But nothing is more important than growth. Once REX is over, you want your cities as big as you can support them as quickly as possible. This investment in Food (if you look at it that way) will pay off big-time later on. Giza, with a nice Gold Hill is a tough decision, but I would usually go with the Food first anyway. Growth in 19 turns is not acceptable.

3. Workers

First, you do not have enough of them. Second, around 3/4 of your Workers are foreign (I believe you've only constructed 6 of your own). I tend not to rely on captured Workers as my main workforce, but look at them as "bonuses" (they cost nothing to support and make things go that much faster). My point is that you need more Workers of your own. You have 2 options in this game: either take a break from Marketplaces and Cathedrals in your big cities to build a Worker or two, or create a Worker factory. This new city would be placed between your existing cities, and would be disbanded when it is no longer needed. You should aim for a Worker every 2-3 turns. I suggest the location close to Pi-Ramesses, in order to benefit from the Flood Plains (or you could Irrigate the Cows close to Thebes).

4. France

Why attack them when you did? I'm thinking because you wanted to deny them the GL and grab it for yourself. This is an ok plan, but remember that the GL really is not as critical as you make it out to be (especially when so close to Education). The resources required to ferry all your Swordsmen over there could have been put to better use elsewhere (see point 5).

5. War Chariots

If I had played this game, I would have been attacking with WCs all the way up to Knights. WCs are not really obsolete until then, even if Pikemen arrive. The jungle and mountains to the North would have slowed you down, but notice that all you need to do is build a road on one Mountain tile around Abydos to "punch through" and have access to the rest of the continent. Really, the map is perfect for WC dominance.

6. Luxuries

A couple of Workers around Abydos are putting a Road on a second Spices Luxury. At this point in the game, road networks are not developed enough to make trading extra resources very efficient. Given the time to do anything on Jungle tiles, I think your Workers could put to better use somewhere else.


I'll post again if I think of something else. Good luck.


Dominae

[BRC]

Thanks Dom. This will be the last time I ever harass you, I promise.

Yup, still a problem. The reason why this is an actual "problem" in this particular game is that you're favoring poorer city-sites just so that they can fit into the perfect, minimal tile-overlap pattern. Take the city of Byblos, for instance (sorry, no screenshots): it would be far better to have it next to the River, where it would benefit from extra Commerce and the ability not to require an Aqueduct. Also, cities such as Elephantine would benefit from being next to the coast, where they could build Harbors and turn those Coast tiles into self-sufficient Food-producers. Your overall growth in those cities is actually lessened in the long run, because you can never truly benefit from the water.

I have a huge favor to ask you. If you are ever bored and have nothing to do, I would really appreciate it if you could get a screenshot of the area and take it to Paint or something, and point out where YOU would have placed cities. I just would like to see how you would develop around Thebes. This would help immensly (sp?).

I notice you're focusing on Commerce when choosing which tiles to work in a particular city. I assume this is because you're anticipating a major Knight upgrade sometime soon (both the Greeks and the Celts have the prerequisites). But nothing is more important than growth. Once REX is over, you want your cities as big as you can support them as quickly as possible. This investment in Food (if you look at it that way) will pay off big-time later on. Giza, with a nice Gold Hill is a tough decision, but I would usually go with the Food first anyway. Growth in 19 turns is not acceptable.

OK. I see this as being a problem. The fact that I need more workers may have something to do with my bad citizen placement. This will be fixed.

First, you do not have enough of them. Second, around 3/4 of your Workers are foreign (I believe you've only constructed 6 of your own). I tend not to rely on captured Workers as my main workforce, but look at them as "bonuses" (they cost nothing to support and make things go that much faster). My point is that you need more Workers of your own. You have 2 options in this game: either take a break from Marketplaces and Cathedrals in your big cities to build a Worker or two, or create a Worker factory. This new city would be placed between your existing cities, and would be disbanded when it is no longer needed. You should aim for a Worker every 2-3 turns. I suggest the location close to Pi-Ramesses, in order to benefit from the Flood Plains (or you could Irrigate the Cows close to Thebes).

I try to acquire as many captured workers as I can, and look at them as an important part of my development. I guess I need to learn to be dependent on my own workers. I like the idea of the worker factory, along with temporary cities. In my ideal world, I could build my cities close together at the beginning of the game, and with the discovery of Hospitals (or whatever), I could clean out some of them. I would also need instruction on which ones to leave, and which ones to keep. At the end of the game though, I want ALL the tiles around my Palace/FP to be used by the least amount of cities.

Why attack them when you did? I'm thinking because you wanted to deny them the GL and grab it for yourself. This is an ok plan, but remember that the GL really is not as critical as you make it out to be (especially when so close to Education). The resources required to ferry all your Swordsmen over there could have been put to better use elsewhere (see point 5).

I looked at it as an opportunity to grab some techs for free. At the time, I was behind by Construction, Currency, and Republic. I really didn't see a more effective way of getting these techs. I gained parity a couple of times, but then was left behind. I still need more help with staying caught up on Emperor. Can you give me advice?? I know you were able to broker Education in 203. Can you give me any similiar examples that will allow me to keep up or stay ahead?? When should I start researching myself instead of just building up the treasury??

If I had played this game, I would have been attacking with WCs all the way up to Knights. WCs are not really obsolete until then, even if Pikemen arrive. The jungle and mountains to the North would have slowed you down, but notice that all you need to do is build a road on one Mountain tile around Abydos to "punch through" and have access to the rest of the continent. Really, the map is perfect for WC dominance.

Ok. When I play Egypt, I mostly ignore WC's except for a Knight upgrade, or when I want to trigger my GA. I was unable to get to horses early enough, and so used a warrior upgrade so that I would be able to go after the Carthaginians. I didn't have another civ close enough to hit, so I just kept hitting them every 20 turns. I was also trying to save my GA. Also, I didn't get to a horse resource fast enough.... again, not enough workers. What population should I keep my main cities fluctuating between?? This would be a big help.

A couple of Workers around Abydos are putting a Road on a second Spices Luxury. At this point in the game, road networks are not developed enough to make trading extra resources very efficient. Given the time to do anything on Jungle tiles, I think your Workers could put to better use somewhere else.

OK. I think I just lack experience to really know this. Now I do, and thank you.

When you play as Egypt, what is the order that you use to research techs?? Which one do you start researching on, which is second, third.....??? I started researching Mysticism first, but would the Wheel be good to get the WC's going??

This is the last time I bother you, I promise. Thank you so much.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
Thanks Dom. This will be the last time I ever harass you, I promise.

Good! Just kidding...

I have a huge favor to ask you. If you are ever bored and have nothing to do, I would really appreciate it if you could get a screenshot of the area and take it to Paint or something, and point out where YOU would have placed cities. I just would like to see how you would develop around Thebes. This would help immensly (sp?).

Immensely. Sure, I'll try to do that at some point.

In my ideal world, I could build my cities close together at the beginning of the game, and with the discovery of Hospitals (or whatever), I could clean out some of them. I would also need instruction on which ones to leave, and which ones to keep. At the end of the game though, I want ALL the tiles around my Palace/FP to be used by the least amount of cities.

I've never tried massive ICS then disband msyelf (or even super-REX then backfill). But I do like using a couple of specialized cities when the need arises. The first time you see a dedicated Worker factory up and running (not just a "normal" city that happens to be producing Workers), you'll be amazed.

I looked at it as an opportunity to grab some techs for free. At the time, I was behind by Construction, Currency, and Republic. I really didn't see a more effective way of getting these techs.

You've contacted all the civs, so you should be able to trade with those for the techs you need, at reduced price. Do not worry about being behind, just make sure you're active in another area (warfare, gold, Wonders, etc.).

I gained parity a couple of times, but then was left behind. I still need more help with staying caught up on Emperor. Can you give me advice?? I know you were able to broker Education in 203. Can you give me any similiar examples that will allow me to keep up or stay ahead?? When should I start researching myself instead of just building up the treasury??

When warmongering I typically focus on my treasury, and extort for techs. When playing a more peaceful game, I contact the other civs very often to see if I can organize and advantageous trade. Really, this last point is the best advice that I can give you on the matter. It also helps to try and figure out which techs the AI will research, and avoid those. Once you've got a tech lead, do not worry about losing it by selling techs; as long as you're getting some gpt, you'll keep the AIs poor enough to ensure your first-rank position.

I'll try to put something together from my AU203 game to properly describe this.

Ok. When I play Egypt, I mostly ignore WC's except for a Knight upgrade, or when I want to trigger my GA.

WCs are cheap and early Horsemen, making them awesome. You can attack very fast and conquer a civ when they're still expanding, or build up a large enough force to do some major conquest later on (or both). Given that Horsemen have quite a long shelf-life, WCs are useful a very long time. Do not be afraid of blowing your GA; most of times it's just best to suck it up and move along.

What population should I keep my main cities fluctuating between??

Difficult to answer. In my games I seem to have a lot of size 2-4 cities, while my core cities go up to size 6 and beyond quite fast. It all depends on what you want to accomplish with those cities.

When you play as Egypt, what is the order that you use to research techs?? Which one do you start researching on, which is second, third.....??? I started researching Mysticism first, but would the Wheel be good to get the WC's going??

Mysticism is good because you'll probably be able to trade it away for a nice price to various civs. It's a gamble, though. I like researching The Wheel first as Egypt (as most civs, actually!) because the location of Horses does some planning for you (where to put cities, where to strike, etc.). After that, it all depends on what the AIs have (i.e. what I will not be able to sell them).


Dominae

[ducki]

My thoughts ...
I too prefer to try to save WCs as cheap Knight prebuilds, but not too many, because I still want to do some Horseman warring - often, WCs are my Second Garrison in cities, the ones where I don't really need the defense, but the added content citizen is a big boon.

If an opportunity presents itself, I will try to trigger my GA with WCs after a government switch.


Cities - I used to try very very hard for perfect placement that would allow 21 tile usage by all my cities ( ) - you know, 4 tiles up and 3 over, or 3 diagonal and 1 orthogonal... problem is, you always end up with a block of 4 tiles in there that can't be used on two sides at least.

Also, it's far more beneficial to try to save yourself the build-time and shields of an Aqueduct - if at all possible to plant a city on a riverside, even if it really screws with your city placement, do so. Yes, the commerce is nice, especially post-Despotism, but the real benefit is not having to build the damn aqueduct - and not having to value construction over some other tech so you can grow.

Since I've been learning to warmonger, I've also learned to use 3-tile and 4-tile spacing - to be clear, 3-tile has 2 tiles between, so a defender can get from city to city in one turn on roads - city, tile, tile, city.

It's hard to get used to, and I usually mix and match between 4-up+3-over and 3 or 4-tile spacing. Yeah, it's ugly, but it seems to work better for me.


Tech...
As Egypt, I usually head for Mysticism and Polytheism first and second, since I can trade for Warrior Code from one of the Militarists nearby and hit Monarchy early - also, Mysticism and Polytheism usually command a nice price from the AI.


I'm no expert, that's just my opinion.

[BRC]

The first time you see a dedicated Worker factory up and running (not just a "normal" city that happens to be producing Workers), you'll be amazed.

A granary is a must, correct??

You've contacted all the civs, so you should be able to trade with those for the techs you need, at reduced price. Do not worry about being behind, just make sure you're active in another area (warfare, gold, Wonders, etc.).

Do you BUY techs, or extort them, and up to what point?? When will you consider buying them, and when will you just wait??

It also helps to try and figure out which techs the AI will research, and avoid those.

Right! I don't have a lot of experience with this. I guess I'll just have to play more.

WCs are cheap and early Horsemen, making them awesome. You can attack very fast and conquer a civ when they're still expanding, or build up a large enough force to do some major conquest later on (or both). Given that Horsemen have quite a long shelf-life, WCs are useful a very long time. Do not be afraid of blowing your GA; most of times it's just best to suck it up and move along.

I'll try this. In fact, I think that I'm gonna restart this game a couple of times and just see where I can go with it.

Mysticism is good because you'll probably be able to trade it away for a nice price to various civs. It's a gamble, though. I like researching The Wheel first as Egypt (as most civs, actually!) because the location of Horses does some planning for you (where to put cities, where to strike, etc.). After that, it all depends on what the AIs have (i.e. what I will not be able to sell them).

Do you just leave it at 40 turns, or do you try and research the chosen techs??

Originally posted by Ducki
If an opportunity presents itself, I will try to trigger my GA with WCs after a government switch.

This is what I usually do. Is it worth it though??

Since I've been learning to warmonger, I've also learned to use 3-tile and 4-tile spacing - to be clear, 3-tile has 2 tiles between, so a defender can get from city to city in one turn on roads - city, tile, tile, city.

I think I've actually started to war less.
That ain't good! I've got some work to do.

As Egypt, I usually head for Mysticism and Polytheism first and second, since I can trade for Warrior Code from one of the Militarists nearby and hit Monarchy early - also, Mysticism and Polytheism usually command a nice price from the AI.

I did this at Monarch, but I'm looking for something a little better at Emperor. Maybe that is the best way though. Again, I'm gonna get back to my roots and see how that works.

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the help. I hope you guys know that. I just want to get better, and more efficient.

BTW, who all downloaded the Japan game??

[BRC]

Dom, and Ducki if you want to. This is a JPEG file of my territory. If either of you wants to mark on here your city spacing and then send it back, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
A granary is a must, correct??

For greatest efficiency, yes.

Do you BUY techs, or extort them, and up to what point?? When will you consider buying them, and when will you just wait??

Extort as much as I can, and buy the rest (when warmongering). I mainly buy techs when I can turn around and sell them to another civ. This is where keeping civs apart and checking the diplo screen often really helps. I also buy techs if it will allow me to research something the other civs do not already have.

Do you just leave it at 40 turns, or do you try and research the chosen techs??

Sometimes the "40-turn strategy" works, but not with any regularity I like to depend on (about half the time the AI discovers the tech before you do, and you're really not very far ahead at that point, are you?). If I'm going to research, I might as well go all the way (taking into consideration maintenance, luxuries and other expenses).

ducki's points all make sense (apart from the wide city placement...it's wasteful for 90% of the game!). Concerning WCs, I really do think you should both try being hyper-aggressive with them early on (maybe even pop-rushing a few). You can often conquer your neighbor, and still have resources and time enough to attack the second or third too (all way before 1AD). My first post on 'Poly dealt with this topic. Although I was a lot less experienced back then, I still hold the belief that an Egyptian "WC rush" is not a bad way to play what is widely accepted as one of the best builder civs.


Dominae

[BRC]

Thanks. I've been doing the 40-turn thing, but have thought more and more about actually researching. Do you still end up with enough money to upgrade the WC's??

[ducki]

Don't get me wrong, Dom, I do pack 'em tight, but sometimes I just have to leave some extra space when I'm pretty sure I can grow a city huge, or if there's an expanse of useless territory, I'll let my Temple/Library close the gap instead of plopping another useless town in the middle of a desert.

The wide spacing was what I used to do in hopes of "optimizing" my placement. Now I pack 'em tight and always try for a riverside.

On the WC thing, I absolutely, positively, without reservation, despise a despotic GA. Maybe when I get better at warmongering I'll learn to like it, but for now, nothing irks me more than that.

Well, ok, maybe getting a leader and losing him on the same turn, but that's about it.

[BRC]

Ducki, I didn't know that you were able to get away from the wide spacing. Nice work! I'll really push for it.

I HATE a despot GA too.

[Dominae]

Here's a quick example of how I would have spaced my cities in your game, BRC. Of course, this assumes perfect knowledge of the map.

The red dots represent city sites, and the ones with yellow inside them are the ones I would have settled first. I definitely would have placed the second city to the left of Thebes, to be able to work the second Cattle. Notice I moved Thebes SW in order to be able to use the Cattle immediately, and so that I could irrigate that tile through Thebes.


Dominae

[BRC]

One question Dom: You moved Thebes off of the river. It now needs a aquaduct, correct?? I just don't understand. Sorry. Is there any other reason besides the cow? Does the 10 turns with the cow outweigh the aquaduct construction, especially being your capitol??

Other than that, thank you very much.

[Dominae]

Ok, sorry, I thought the tile SW of Thebes was also beside a River. I this case I would leave Thebes were you founded it in your game (at the start spot).


Dominae

[BRC]

ok. just checking. thanks.

[vmxa1]

Hum, I tried to look at the saves BRC and got errors from Civ3 and PTW on all but the 4000BC ones?
I seem to remember trying to look at some other ones you posted awhile back and had the same problem.
I have 1.14 on. Is there something unique about them?