War weariness carryover

[Killerdaffy]

Nothing new, just more questions:

Is there a difference in the happiness bonus when attacked depending on the government type? Does it matter whether you fight your old arch-enemy or betray your long-time ally?

[bongo]

No big news but I can confirm that the one-turn(more like 5 turns of mon. actually) government switch(Demo->Mon->Demo) possible with religious tribes does NOT remove WW in patch 1.29f.

Just had to try it 8-)

Slitghtly OT. I'm just about the only civ left on the planet that hasn't got nationalism, which is also the reason that I don't stop the war against the evil americans. But they are real stubborn and refuse to give it to me. They rahter have me eat them alive than give me that tech for peace. Why's that?

[Arrian]

How many times have you been at war with America? If you have beaten on them before, they are less likely to give up tech for peace. It's like a vendetta.

-Arrian

[dac]

Arrian:

Ack! Are you kidding!!?? How long has this been known? I just had a war with France for the specific purpose of getting some technology. (My third with her for that purpose, I think). I eventually had to give it up lest WW topple my Buddhist Democracy. .

Oh, I guess there was that little issue of an oil patch that I grabbed, but I was mostly after tech.

So, this makes the vassal strategy make more sense. If you leave an empire powerful enough to think it is somewhat equal, it will fight long and hard to avoid giving tech?

Anybody have any thoughts as to whether getting another Civ to declare war on you by planting spies (all I use them for) counts as you declaring war, or the AI declaring war. I know who started the war makes a big difference in calculating WW.

Thanks
dac

[Solver]

WW seems to always reach the boil-points in strange fashion. Like, I'm fighting the war, from my Democracy, posess lots of luxuries, everything seems OK, then one turn 80% of empire goes into disorder... I use the entertainment slider and cotninue the war till again another point is reached where half the empire is in disorder again...

[bongo]

Arrian: It's the second war i've started against them so it's not unlikely that they don't trust me.

Arrian & dac: I've just read that catching up in tech have been made more expensive in the latest patch(1.29f). I discovered steam power just after I made peace with the americans but they still wasn't interested in an exchange. None of the other nations were either. The best offer came from japan who wanted steam+1020g+world map for nationalism.

I'm back at democracy now and WW is nil. I'm still at war with two other nations but there are little war going on so my guess is that being in a state of war does NOT impact WW. At least not much.

:-( Grmpff! Had to whip myself with a wet towel when I found that I failed to notice a source of luxury in an american city close to the front-line until AFTER peace was made.

[XOR]

One thing, signing peace treaties lessens WW. I'm not sure if it resets or reduces the boiling point thing, I just know it lessens the WW. It does not matter if you were fighting a war with A, then sign a treaty with B. Peace treaties can be used to lessen War Weariness.

Question: Who is considered as declaring the war when a mutual protection pact forces you to declare war on someone? I never attack people, but I get into mutual protection pact and let the AI do the job of finding an enemy for me, I have found that Monarchy and Communist civs are specially effective at this.

[bongo]

I've noticed that a peace treaty reduces WW. I'm not sure if it resets WW or just temporarly suspend it.

My guess is that declaring a war over a MPP count as you declaring it. In my current game I had to declare war towards the russians when they attacked the chinese(whom with I have a MPP). I had made peace with the russians 4 turns earlier and made a quick revolution to democracy. No WW as I had peace with the world. When the russians attacked the chinese-> massive unhappiness and rioting all over my empire.

BTW, how can I end a MPP? Hopefully in a peaceful manner. I need to speed up my research rate and communism is no good for that.

[bbaws]

Apologies if someone mentioned this but there is a very simple way to reduce war weariness.

Don't let your units die!

Be really carefull with your forces and note the difference. On monarch level I was constantly at war for at least 60 turns. Admitedly it was overseas so the AI was rarely on my continent. Also because it was overseas and the only transports I had were galleys I had to be super conservative with my units. I was only capturing an enemy city maybe every 3 or four turns but the care I took of my units translated into inconsequential WW. As Patton says "Let the other guy die for his country". All those funerals are whats causing the unhappiness, or is that just too obvious?

[bongo]

bbaws: If you are right this will totally change my warfare. I'll have to stop using obsolete units as cannonfodder and rather build armies by the bucketload.

Too obious for me

[Catt]

I tried to do some playtesting on WW, but it demands too much time and attention - not worth it to me. Nonetheless, just based on gameplay experience, I don't see a whole lot different from the game than what the manual tells us to expect as causes of war weariness: (1) enemy troops in your territory; (2) your troops in enemy territory; and (3) engaging in combat.

I can't say I've seen any notable differences in WW whether lots of my units die or not, but the number of variables involved in WW seems pretty daunting to isolate -- while I haven't seen it, it wouldn't come as a huge surprise to learn that units dying actually "count" more in the WW "account" than mere units in combat.

Catt

[bongo]

Catt: You're right. Testing takes too much time to be worthwhile. If my girlfriend dumps me and I loose my job at the same time I may go for some serious WW-playtesting

Until that happens(I hope it don't) I play like usual and just keep a close eye to WW and gameplay. Any conclusion will be based on my observations.

I've tried to minimize my losses and it seems to slow down the accumulation of WW. Even stop it if I'm careful. It won't go down though.

It also seems that WW accumulates on a per-tribe basis -> If I am WW-challenged because of heavy fighting with the chinese a peace-treaty with the japanese won't help me much.

[Meldor]

I play in a lot of the SG games at CFC and have just finished one on the world map domination, staying in Republic for almost the entire game and no problems with WW. Some observations from my play:

You seem to have a seperate WW "pool" for each Civ. If you are engaged in a large multi-civ war, killing off or signing peace with a civ cn remove a lot of the total WW. Exampe: in one of the games I am currently playing, we were at war with 3 different Civs, Japan, Russia, and Egypt. Russia was down to a single city, Japan had only three, and the Egyptians were still kicking strong. I conquered the Japanese and about 10% of my cities went into WLT?D. Two turns later, the Russians were gone (there last city was hidden behind some size 24+ Egyptian cities), more of mine went into WLT?D. This was the case, even though we were still in a pitched battle for the Egyptian territory.

Which brings me to the second observation: The number of citizens of the AI you have in captured cities, seems to make a big differnce in WW for you. These citizens, even when quelled tend to have a lot more WW than one of your own. In the above case, as I was MM'ing the captured cities to prevent flip, I noticed that the percentage of WW caused unhappy people was higher in captured cities even though they had been under my rule for a long time (through earlier conquest). Once the Civ in question was eliminated, these people instantly assumed the same attitude as teh general population, and the drop in WW was felt throughout the empire. If you stop a war, these foriegn citizens, take longer to get over WW and if war is restarted, they are quicker to become unhappy.

One would think that razing AI cities would boost your WW, as your citizens are unhappy with genocide tactics, but I have found that due to the above problem, it is better for WW (and flipping) to raze and re-build or quickly bleed off the populace if you need to keep the city. This may be the problem some of you have seen in your large empires. Check to see if your citizens are foriegn nationals. If a citizen is a member of a foriegn group, it stays that way for the rest of the game, even if the Civ in question is eliminated. After, your third war with a given Civ, you may have a number of your cities in your large empire that are native to the Civ you are attacking and this may speed your decline into WW.

[jabberwockysr]

Foreign nationals do eventually convert to your empire. The percentage chance is based on gov't and can be modded. I think it's 4% per turn for dem, 2 for mon, rep and comm, and 1 for desp and anarchy, but I'd have to check.

At that rate they remember nationality for about an age, but it's not forever.

[XOR]

I would like to know how much difference does it make to WW to be republic instead of democracy.

I've had a war that lasted like 100 turns because I forgot I was at war and my enemy didnt even remind me by attacking or contacting me to sign peace. During that war, I had no war weariness. That was in democracy.