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The Quest for Deeper Strategy....

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  • The Quest for Deeper Strategy....

    I really enjoyed hammering out ideas for the Mod-With-No-Name, back when we did that. That was cool. That was very cool, actually.

    But what I had in my head this time was a bit different, and a bit simpler, I think.

    Some (and it wouldn't take many) tweaks to the bic file that would make the game more grand in terms of strategy, and fix a few lingering annoyances.

    Here's my mod list and the reasons I'm thinking of making the change.

    1) Make techs cost what they cost! (actually, you can't, exactly...but you can make the upper time limit 100 Turns, and the lower time limit 1 turn for discovery of new techs).

    Reasoning: This shouldn't hurt the AI much at all, given their bonuses, but I've never liked the artificial feel of those arbitrary constraints. One thing it will do for the HUMAN player, however, is really make you think about growth. After all, if you grow and build that library, you could REALLY cut down on the time needed to discover Warrior Code.....Granaries more useful by far. Pottery might actually become a sought after tech! (inadventantly, this strengthens Expansionist, which IMO is a good thing on most map settings).

    Also, it'll extend the ancient and middle age period (before you get your libraries and universities built). And in my mind, that's where the heart and soul of the game is.

    2) Age-Specific bonus hp's. The editor allows this...every age beyond the first, each unit of that age gets +1 hp per age (such that a regular knight would have as many hp's as a veteran sword....a regular rifleman would have as many hp's as a veteran knight, etc). This hp bonus is reflective of the inherent superiority of later-aged units. one hp per age might not seem like much, but what it means is that your elite MA's have 8 hp's...OUCH!

    Reasoning: This should help even out the combat results. I really HAVE seen tanks killed by spearmen. Not often, mind you...but more often that statistics tell me is reasonable.

    3) Musket Man changed to a cost of 5

    Reasoning: He's too expensive and never gets built.

    4) Increase ship movement by +1 point per age over what the movement currently is.

    5) Default Barbs: Sorry, but even at raging, the barbs are annoying and little more. I'd LOVE to be able to mod the game so that they could capture cities, but since we can't, I changed the default units: Swordsman, Knight, Caravel. Barbs are now LETHAL, and worthy of the terror they ought to inspire. Simply put, if you're faced with a barbarian uprising in Ancient times...don't even bother trying to defend your towns.

    6) Explorer: Available at map making. How silly to not make an exploration unit available till the game's half over with, at a point in the game when there's absolutely nothing to explore. Yeah, it bites into Expansionist's spiffy ability, but not really. By then all the goody huts are gone. At navigation, make another Explorer type unit available...this one costing two pop points. Same abilities as the regular explorer, plus acts as a worker, plus can make new towns.

    7) Bombards: All troops with ranged weapons should get them (range 0). Will extend the shelf life of Archers a little.

    8) Was giving some serious thought to making all troops cost points of pop to build (and of course, make it such that old troops could be added back into the city). That'd make granaries exponentially more important, and would add in a real guns and butter factor into the mix....how bad do I REALLY need another attacker??

    9) Elevated the defensive bonuses for various things (25% for town bonus, for example) - Since all current best practices point to early war, I thought I'd make early war a bit more daunting.

    10) Was seriously considering giving all units ZOC ability. I agree the old ZOC system was broken, but c'mon...the total lack of ZOC is downright silly, and all military units can exert at least some control over their area....that's kinna the point!

    11) Give Commercial Civs Pottery as their starting tech also...this offsets the fact that the Commercial Civ has a weak (in its current implementation) special abililty, and justifies why Pottery is such a cheapo tech, given the new importance of Granaries.

    Was gonna make these modifications and see how it played out, and wanted to see if anybody else might be interested in the modified bic file.

    -=Vel=-
    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

  • #2
    D'oh! Forgot to make it an even dozen changes: Specialists: Taxmen available at Currency, provide 3 coins, Scientists available at writing, provide 3 beakers.

    -=Vel=-
    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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    • #3
      What about lethal bombardment?

      Comment


      • #4
        Don't know....that's a good thought...would make planes able to sink ships...a good thing. Would also make ZOC and the bombard of ranged troops a bit more dangerous. Izzat something we can do with the newest iteration of the editor. I've not looked.

        -=Vel=-
        The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

        Comment


        • #5
          1.21 allows it. It is something I have been thinking about, however it may make Arty and Bombers too powerful.

          Comment


          • #6
            Vel,

            If you want to balance out commercial, I would suggest a discount on marketplaces and banks (25% so it's not too big).

            Or, I pondered turning "commercial" into "lawful." Since it's actually a anti-corruption trait, why not make courthouses and police stations 1/2 price?

            I think you're going overboard with the barbs, but that's just me. I'm not too big on barbs.

            edit: I think lethal bombardment would break the game.

            -Arrian
            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

            Comment


            • #7
              Some suggestions for you:

              1) Give tanks the "wheeled" flag. This way they can't enter mountains and jungles without roads.

              Reasoning: Makes paratroopers and marines more useful. Also enhances realism.

              2) Reduce the cost of privateers to 4. (Privateers are also a better choice for the barbarian naval unit, by the way)

              Reasoning: Currently privateers cost as much as frigates. They are not cost-effective at all.

              3) Reduce the movement of ironclads to 3, and make them available with industialization.

              Reasoning: The age of sail is not long enough. This way when ironclads become available, they do not make frigates obsolete (as was the case historically).

              4) Reduce cost for espionage, especially for propaganda and stealing techs.

              Reasoning: Currently it is simply not worth investing in espionage.

              5) Change SS components to require different (later) techs.

              Reasoning: You never get through half the modern age tech tree before launching.

              Check out player 1's mod for minor unit tweaks that improve game balance.

              PS. Arrian, civs traits like building costs are not modifiable through the editor.

              Comment


              • #8
                I've been thinking about this too... good ideas.

                Stay tuned for a new thread:

                The Best of the Best
                The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

                Comment


                • #9
                  PS. Arrian, civs traits like building costs are not modifiable through the editor.
                  Well, so much for that idea.

                  Good point about the "wheeled" flag. Tanks on mountains and in jungles are sorta silly.

                  Privateers are actually pretty useful as they are now... IF you're a powerful nation and can build them in decent numbers. Otherwise they're not worth it. Dunno about the cost drop...

                  -Arrian
                  grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                  The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In case some of you guys haven't seen this yet...

                    For changes to the Commercial trait (and a couple of other things) in PtW from a recent chat with Firaxis:

                    http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=54567

                    No announced help for the Expansionists, though.

                    Does this mean we can look forward to a 'The Joys of being Commercial' thread after PtW has been released?
                    If I'm posting here then Counterglow must be down.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Having thought about it over lunch, I have come to the same conclusion that Arrian arrived at. Lethal bombardment would break the game.

                      At this point, everything's pretty well set in stone, and all we can do is tweak the existing framework. If there ever was a window of opportunity to influence the core design, that time is long past.

                      Since the AI is non-moddable, and it can't make effective use of bombard units (for the life of me, I cannot fathom why the AI sends it bombers to take out my access to Saltpeter, as my Modern Armor slices through its empire), then the only advantage we get by making bombard units lethal is a decidedly human advantage.

                      Yeah, we all know that planes can sink ships. I would say, however, that Civ has never been about hyper-realism, and to make that aspect of the game reflect reality will break the game in a great many other ways. It's just not worth the tradeoff, IMO.

                      I like the naval changes, and will add those mods to the list. Primarily what I'm looking to do is to make the needed changes to make the game more compelling and strategic, without having to use anything more than the editor (I don't wanna have to do all those funky gyrations that are required when you add in new techs and such....don't understand that anyway, and don't have the time to learn it, sadly). So...I'm attempting to address what I see as weaknesses of the design with quick and dirty fixes that will make the game more balanced, and offer up more in the way of strategic choice.

                      For example: By extending the minimum tech time out to 100 turns, then research really matters. You can't just ride the AI's coattails anymore. Every beaker counts.

                      It also adds weight and importance to your starting tech, and to individual tech choices. No more of this just researching "whatever." Won't work that way anymore.

                      The Archer rush and early Horsie rush are, not killed exactly, but greatly curtailed by making troops cost pop points, and by adding some teeth to defensive bonuses. Under the system proposed, strategy is more important, and most existing strategies will have to be revised in the face of the changes (can't just set your research slider to 10% and expect to buy your way to dominance...not unless you wanna spend 3000 years in the stone ages). Anyway, I've got some time tonight, and can make these changes in fairly short order, if anybody wants to try a game under the modified bic settings, I'll post it when it's done.

                      -=Vel=-
                      The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        LOL....mayhaps, Stoo....mayhaps....

                        -=Vel=-
                        The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Lethal Bombardment

                          I played for a while with a mod that included lethal naval bombardment (i.e., most bombardment units could kill naval units but not land units).

                          That alone "broke the game" as the AI simply didn't use it effectively.

                          Catt

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                          • #14
                            Great Scott (Library)

                            Semi-random thoughts.....

                            1) The mod to the tech costs would make me go directly for the Great Lirary without passing go. This would seem to become the one wonder that you couldn't do without.

                            2) The units costing citizens, I think will have a tendency to break th AI. It was not designed for it. It will be running its normal strat for defensive and offensive builds, and kill its cities by (unknowning) stripping them of population. This will slow the AI way down and make them easy targets for the human player. We all know one of the strats for success late in the game is to get the AI into a war so it drips to communism and decimates its cities with conscirpted units. I have on a number of occasions put embassies in only to see the AI sitting with a built settler waiting for the pop to expand so it will build. Now this will happen all the time as the AI cities sit at pop 1 while it tries, unsuccessfully to build that second warrior. Maybe when MP comes out, this will be a great mod and slow those rush players down, but against the AI I think it will be deadly.

                            3) I like the wheeled for the armoured units. I can see it now, placing cities in jungles and leaving that defensive band to slow invaders down.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Bingo. Bombard is already a human advantage, because we know how to use it, whereas the AI just sticks 1-2 bombard units in its core cities for defense. It's a good thing that Firaxis weakened it in 1.17.

                              Good news about the commercial trait. Very good news.

                              Vel,

                              I'd like to see how the game plays without the research caps. Definite boost in power for the Great Library, I'd say. Then you CAN ride the AI's coatails while setting up your economy. Emperor and Deity would be truely brutal. You'd be in a hideous hole.

                              Nerfing early war may be a good idea. One could still seriously harm a civ by stealing workers and killing any exposed units, but the mongol horde rush for continental domination would go away. I'd miss it, though

                              Edit: more thoughts: Bear in mind that some of these chances will further unbalance staring positions. Rivers in particular will provide a HUGE (as opposed to the present BIG) boost, since you trade is doubled when compared to a non-river start, plus you don't need an aqueduct... and you can irrigate. The removal of tech caps and the pop cost of units will make this an even bigger deal.

                              -Arrian
                              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                              Comment

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