Effects of 1.21f changes?

[Dominae]

Arrian, it's nice to see someone else "pushing" the Japanese so strongly; next to the Egyptians, they're my favorite civ, for the reasons you mention (cheap Temples and Barracks), and of course the simply amazing Samurai.

One question: have you tried building Horsemen straight up, rather than going through the Chariot upgrade? It seems to me like you're never going to use those Chariots as is, and Horseback Riding comes pretty fast. Personally, I use all the money you're using to upgrade to get to Horseback Riding ASAP, plus I have some left over for early trading (now somewhat useful with 1.21). I tried the Chariot upgrade path, but quite unsuccessfully. Any tips from an expert?

Also, I have to mention that the Samurai, besides their great stats, have the advantage of coming at the perfect time for any warmonger on Monarch+. Horsemen rushes on Emperor sometimes fail, but holding out for a bit and raining fire on your enemies with Samurai later is guaranteed to tip the balance of power. It doesn't matter that the AI has a lot more units (due to production advantage): pound for pound, the Samurai trumps any unit the AI can spit out.


Dominae

[Harovan]

The Japanese are on top of my wannatry list. Have heard awesome things about them, and already had some test games, although ancient age only, no samurai yet. On Marla's (dunno if it is 1.21-playable yet) I am going to give the Russians a try. Let's see if I can prevent the European civs from settling my Siberia .

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Dominae

One question: have you tried building Horsemen straight up, rather than going through the Chariot upgrade? It seems to me like you're never going to use those Chariots as is, and Horseback Riding comes pretty fast. Personally, I use all the money you're using to upgrade to get to Horseback Riding ASAP, plus I have some left over for early trading (now somewhat useful with 1.21). I tried the Chariot upgrade path, but quite unsuccessfully. Any tips from an expert?

Dominae

I started out buiding the horsemen straight-up. I have decided the chariot upgrade is better. A chariot is 20 shields. A horseman is 30. Early in the game, ten shields is significant. Money, meanwhile, is easy to horde as a despot. The goal is to generate a large attack force quickly, and I think this is the quickest way to do it. And no, the chariots never see action.

I do not trade with other civs when executing this strategy. I have nothing to say to them. I will take what I want, when I want it, and there isn't anything they can do about it.

I deliberately hold off on horseback riding so that I have time to build my cities, temples, barracks and chariots, while building up the treasury. That's why I research warrior code (well, that's a pre-req), bronze, iron, masonry first. Masonry is just there in case I get a really early leader - then I can rush the Pyramids right then and there. Masonry could easily be cut out, and sometimes is.

The Samurai is a very well-timed unit. Though I'd say the Rider is more powerful (3 moves in the middle ages?? If you have a bunch of horsemen lying around "it's-all-ov-er, *clap, clap, clapclapclap, it's-all-over..."). Particularly for a civ that has spent the ancient era building temples, barracks and troops, a medieval golden age is a beautiful thing. I normally trigger it with wonders, though (Sistine/Sun Tzu).

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Didymus
Now your tanks can actually attack a defended city twice in one turn!

I thought Modern Armour & Panzers (never tried 'em) were the only units that could attack more than once. Could anyone clarify?

[Cort Haus]

Upgrading War Chariots

When do Egypt's war-chariots become obsolete?

Not with horseback-riding in my last 1.21 game. I was able to build them deep into the middle-ages - maybe because the host cities were on pre-harbour islands with local Horses, but missing Iron & Saltpetre. This was handy as I could build WC in cheeseball cities, then ship them to the mainland to upgrade to cavalry, allowing the core to get on with universities & banks. Eventually the build auto-swiched from WC to Cav and I couldn't build WC any more - must have been when the harbour was complete.

If the UU chariot doesn't obsolete as quickly as the standard one, presumably Arrian's strat doesn't need to avoid horseback riding if playing Egypt.

[civman2000]

I thought Modern Armour & Panzers (never tried 'em) were the only units that could attack more than once. Could anyone clarify?

This is how it was before. Now attacking units that do not move into the attacked square are only charged 1 movement point, so blitz units with under 3 moves can attack multiple times

[Harovan]

Re: Upgrading War Chariots

Originally posted by Cort Haus
When do Egypt's war-chariots become obsolete?

According to the 1.21f README with Chivalry like it should be, as upgrading them to Horsemen brings no benefit far from the ability, that they can now move over mountains and jungle (at the cost of 10 more shields). If you decide not to research Chivalry (which is optional), you can build them till Military tradition then.

[Theseus]

Arrian, a suggestion if I may...

Since you are waiting all the way to Chivalry before you really go at hard-core warmongering, you might want to try building some more Warriors very early on, then enough Spearman to act as defense, and do some smallish oscillating attacks as soon as you can upgrade to Swordsman.

I know you are saving your shekels for the big Samurai upgrade, but I suggest that this approach will provide the following benefits:

1) VERY early war, even if limited, has tremendous relative strength implications. If you have 1-2 strong civs nearby (and IIRC, you usually do on standard maps), taking / razing say 2 out of 4-6 cities is very damaging.

2) Following the above, your extortion for peace treaties will provide some of the techs you otherwise research, (e.g., masonry), and, most importantly, re-stock your gold reserves for the later Samurai upgrade.

3) If you're very lucky, you just might get a GL.

I've been playing Persia and Rome mostly lately, but I'm going back to Japan this weekend, and will certainly play this way. Going to try Standard, Emperor, BTW.

[Cort Haus]

Re: Re: Upgrading War Chariots

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
If you decide not to research Chivalry (which is optional), you can build them till Military tradition then.

I think that was it - no-one had researched Chivalry untill the end of the age.

[Harovan]

Won my game by culture, 13 turns before the spaceship launch . Gah, didn't check F5 for long. Heck, who cares. So, next free game will be with Japan too. I must finally try those Samurai.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Theseus
Since you are waiting all the way to Chivalry before you really go at hard-core warmongering, you might want to try building some more Warriors very early on ...

rpodos, I mean, Theseus I know this was a suggestion for Arrian, but I feel the need to throw in my two cents.

I've found the Warrior rush on Emperor really really difficult. By the time you get enough Warriors to do a good job, the AI has a couple of Spearmen in each city, and those aren't very good odds. The earliest rush that I think works on Emperor is a Horsemen rush, which is why Arrian is pre-buidling Chariots. You also have to consider the fact that Warriors upgrade to Swordsmen, which aren't really useful to Japan (the way I play Japan, at least).

So, if you can get your the Warrior Gambit to work on Emperor, I'd love to hear your secrets. I agree with you that early war is crucial, and the earlier the better. Since the Warrior is your first unit, anything that works with those little dudes has to be good!


Dominae

[notyoueither]

Funny thing is that a couple of times when a distant AI has declared war on me early in the game and I have had a single Warrior exploring near them, I've taken a few cities defended by lone Spearmen. Raze. Heal. Move on. Funny as h*ll. On Emperor.

"Give us X, or we'll declare war!"
Shove it.
"OK, it's War!"
OK. Did you need this city?

[Txurce]

Sir Ralph, great game. Your early pop manipulation is interesting, but as I review your culture track, I have to ask... when do you go to war? Don't tell me you played straight builder. Not with this bunch reading these posts.

Arrian, I also build 6-8 cities, then ramp up for war... but rarely as a matter of choice. That's about as many as I ever have room for, employing peaceful means. And of that core group, at least a couple max out at pop-2; these are the ones where I build a barracks, no temple, and start pumping out the UU du jour. In my games, the turning point is almost always whether I have the time to build that first force; then again, I never try a horseman rush, but rather an early UU blitz. I obviously agree with Theseus that there is no reason not to wage war early on, as nothing negates the AI's handicap faster. (I draw the line at warrior rushes of the Jaguar variety, however.)

Like everyone else it seems, I'll be trying Japan this weekend as well. I am a little curious as to why their defensive edge over knights makes them so ferocious - the rider seems more useful, given that the human is usually on the attack, and that extra move is what a successful blitz is all about.

I'm playing the Persians right now, and should win the game via space race. It has been almost all war, with the Immortals lasting all the way to cavalry. I had a tough starting spot, sandwiched between the Germans and the Zulu, with the Babs and Russians below them. It's been almost all war, switching from one front to the other. Along the lines of what Dominae said about research, I learned iron working first, naturally, then turned it off until metallurgy. (Military victories got me everything in between.) After military tradition, it was 10% science again until I beat everyone on my continent into second-rate parity. Selective research.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Txurce
Sir Ralph, great game. Your early pop manipulation is interesting, but as I review your culture track, I have to ask... when do you go to war? Don't tell me you played straight builder. Not with this bunch reading these posts.

I wiped out 2 civs (Aztecs+Americans) early and indeed decided not to warmonger anymore in this game. After having almost exclusively bloodthirsty games with 1.17f, it was nice to have a builder game again, after a warmongering ancient age though.

But it wasn't meant to happen. My MPP with France lead to a common war with Russia (Joan being the bad girl). I landed only 2 transports with 8 tanks, 4 infanteries and 4 artilleries and supported them with 4 carriers full of bombers and a fleet of battleships and destroyers. I met mainly pikemen, with few riflemen and spearmen (the antitank spearman wasn't among them). That was enough to capture (not raze!) the Russian core land. I didn't lose a single unit and didn't even have any trouble with flipping back cities or excessive russian drafting. Not at all! This short war (about 10 turns) gave me my first and only leader in this game, who became the UN.

Overall it seems builder strategy is applicable again, although from a very strong position, after it was severely hurt by the 1.17f changes.

PS (Edit): When the game ended, the world was in a huge MPP driven war. All nations but me were fighting. I had cancelled the MPP with France during the Russian campaign (it had expired long ago) and didn't have any trouble researching and building the spaceship, while all other nations fought each other. Every turn I had 2-3 alliance or MPP requests, which I politely declined, offering my worldmap as gift instead.

[Ethelred]

My MPP with France lead to a common war with Russia (Joan being the bad girl).

Joan undergoes some sort of transformation in the Modern Age. She stops being peacefull and begins to start wars. Not a good choice for an MPP if you don't want a late war. I suspect the picture of her for the Modern Age influenced her behaviour.